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Layers Panel: be able to Group two Objects that are already in a Group with more than two objects

Engaged ,
Feb 21, 2025 Feb 21, 2025

I have already posted this in UserVoice, but cross-posting here so others can see my workaround. And who knows, maybe suggest a better workaround?

I am creating flowcharts within InDesign as it seems to work better for me than in Illustrator. The Layers Panel allows me to do this. But I really, really wish I didn't have to do this workaround. These are my personal notes for future reference:
Grouping for complex assemblages of objects: creating a new group
This is needed because the Layers Panel won't allow you to group items deep in the Layers Panel, only if they're at the top level; you can't create a "Group within a Group."
- Use Layers Panel
- Keep two objects (doesn't matter what) off the page named "Dummy Object," select them with the mouse, then Menu > Object > Group
- Rename this to what you want your group's name to be
- Drag TWO OR MORE objects or groups into this group
- Drag the two Dummy Objects to the top of the Layers panel
to get them out of the group
- Drag the new group to the right position in the Layers panel

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Feature request
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LEGEND ,
Feb 21, 2025 Feb 21, 2025

You can crate separate groups - then group them together. 

 

Group is like any other graphic object - can be grouped with other objects. 

 

RobertatIDTasker_0-1740180629130.png

 

Unless I'm missing something?

 

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LEGEND ,
Feb 21, 2025 Feb 21, 2025

And I've regrouped everything - doing drag&drop in the Layers pallet:

 

RobertatIDTasker_0-1740180805562.png

 

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Engaged ,
Feb 22, 2025 Feb 22, 2025

First, a digression that will make sense in a bit. As fas as programming language design, there are those like Pascal or Modula-2 that were designed to be "self-commenting." That means that when you go back a year later to try to figure out how to tweak your program, it's pretty easy. Then, there are languages like APL that are designed for getting the job done quickly and screw the commenting. And when you try to go back a year later and tweak and reuse the code? You realize why some people called APL a "write-only" language.

 

OK, so in my textbook I did some text-heavy flowcharts for triage systems in InDesign rather than Illustrator. And I wanted to tweak them. And I realized that, when I looked at them in the Layers Panel, they looked a lot like APL code. So I decided to clean them up, to basically change them from APL to Modula-2 or Pascal. (I would tell you how long it is taking me but I would be very embarrassed.)

 

One of the things that occur frequently in flowcharts are lines with an arrowhead and the word "Yes" or "No" attached to them. Of course in my original, each line and word "Yes" or "No" were not grouped together. So, in the picture below, I'm trying to group the word "Yes" and it's line together. I've selected both of them. But, presumably because they're both already in a Group, I can't group them together in a subgroup: the menu item "Group" is grayed out. (Right-clicking won't work either.) I did figure out, eventually, that I can just drag them out of the group to where they're right under the top Layer in the Layers panel and then group them, no need for Dummy Objects.

Grouping.jpg

 

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LEGEND ,
Feb 22, 2025 Feb 22, 2025

@keithconover

 

Yeah, you can't make a group from a thin air - but you can drag ungrouped object into an existing group.

 

Still, this won't create a sub-group within existing group - but you don't have to ungroup and then group again in order to add a single object. 

 

But yes - you've to drag ungrouped object(s) out of the group, then group them together or with other objects - then drag this new group back into original group.

 

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Community Expert ,
Feb 22, 2025 Feb 22, 2025

Maybe I'm misreading this, but my takeaway is that you want layers and grouping to be so... malleable that there's a diminished reason to use either.

 

I wouldn't disagree that the overall logic and limits could use some top-down TLC and reordering, but I don't really want entities to be able to "flow" from layer to layer and group to group, or create hybrid version that bridge either.

 

I have a flowchart doc I've developed over the years that gives me about 100 elements to pick and choose and build from. It lets me work fast with all the tools ID offers, for relatively small and occasional needs. (I do a lot of "illustration" in ID as well, just from... combined quirks of habit and skill.) But for the intersection of wanting to to charts in ID, it does take a lot of fairly manual operations. If I really need flowcharting that is fluid and automatic in the way the best apps present it, well... I use those apps. 🙂

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Community Expert ,
Feb 22, 2025 Feb 22, 2025

Well, I for one would like to be able to revisit a group and do some further organizing by selecting objects already in that group and making a subgroup from them without having to ungroup first. I find myself going back and reorganising "building blocks" after I've done a preliminary iteration of a new design.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 22, 2025 Feb 22, 2025

But it's possible to UNGROUP objects that are grouped and are part of the group - without the need to ugroup everything - or moving this group out of the group and back:

RobertatIDTasker_1-1740269639158.png

RobertatIDTasker_2-1740269654407.png

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LEGEND ,
Feb 22, 2025 Feb 22, 2025

And it looks like it's not possible to add new elements to groups through scripting...

 

Add() does nothing - no errors - move() accepts only (x,y), Page, Spread or Layer.

 

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Engaged ,
Feb 22, 2025 Feb 22, 2025

Here's why I was perseverating about this. I will not tell you how long it took me to make this in a way that (a was true to the original, b) pleasing to the eye, c) easy to understand, and d) easy to tweak or adapt for a new or changed triage system. At least that's what I'm telling myself.

Final result:

SALT-Triage.jpg

Layers Panel, collapsed:

Layer-Panel-Collapsed.jpg

 Layers Panel, expanded:

Layer-Panel-Expanded.jpg

I hope that at least one other person finds this helpful. And if you're wondering how I made the diamonds for the flowchart without moving over to Illustrator:

 

Each diamond is a Groupof two text frames, one to hold the actual text in the diamond, the other to form the diamond.
1. Create a square frame.
2. Give it a one-pixel border
3. Object > Transform > Rotate 45 degrees
4. Object > Transform > Scale > [unlink X and Y scaling] > Scale Y to 50%

 

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Community Expert ,
Feb 23, 2025 Feb 23, 2025

Seeing and hopefully understanding correctly what you're trying to accomplish, I think it might be impossible or at least unfavorable to get a grip on creating, selecting, and editing elements quickly, based on Groups and Layers. These are hierarchically/physically very strict ! And it's visually not much more than a simple stacking order, in which only parent pages and masks can perform some exclusive side steps, but not with the ease of use you'd prefer or need.

 

You need style tagging, so you can control any visual expression and functional feature without messing with or within these Layers and Groups their hierarchical construction. Object Styles might help with that a lot ! Even the diamonds can be created, edited, and managed as one single text frame with an Object style ! They can define all visual and functional properties of any object, not just a simple Line and Fill setting. 

 

Scherm­afbeelding 2025-02-23 om 12.50.27.png

To create the "Negative Decision" object style, I used Corner Options to create the diamond shape, I used Vertical Alignment to center the text in de middle and add some inset, I connected it to a Paragraph Style to make the text the right font, white, horizontally centered, etc. I even restricted its Width to a set size, leaving the Height to whatever is necessary, and set it to always be Positioned left-aligned at 0mm from the right margin.

 

It takes a while and some thinking and discipline to set them up, but editing the size and appearance of objects will become just a matter of applying or Redefining their associated styles. Leaving Layers and Groups to control all objects their visual stacking, selecting, and relating.

 

Keep in mind to name styles semantically. E.g. not "Black Diamond with White Text" but i.e. "Negative Decision". So when you need to edit or overhaul a style its appearance, its name still makes sense. And of course, you can always override any setting or or even disconnect any style locally/manually.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 23, 2025 Feb 23, 2025
quote

[...]

Each diamond is a Groupof two text frames, one to hold the actual text in the diamond, the other to form the diamond.
1. Create a square frame.
2. Give it a one-pixel border
3. Object > Transform > Rotate 45 degrees
4. Object > Transform > Scale > [unlink X and Y scaling] > Scale Y to 50%

 

By @keithconover

 

But you can do this as a ONE TextFrame:

 

RobertatIDTasker_2-1740312669753.png

 

1) create TextFrame - can be square,

2) type text,

3) use DIRECT SELECTION TOOL to select all PathPoints - you can do an area selection of the whole object,

4) set angle - 45 degree,

5) RESIZE - not scale - the TextFrame any way you want - by dragging any bottom - to make it a diamond.

6) apply ObjectStyle - this step can be made at any point - but not before 1) ;).

 

This way - it's still a fully functional TextFrame - where only the path defining it's shape is rotated - text / contents remains unaffected.

 

RobertatIDTasker_3-1740312870209.png

 

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Engaged ,
Feb 23, 2025 Feb 23, 2025

Thanks for the tip about the diamond-looking text frames! But in this particular instance, rather than going back and making all of those sets of two frames into ones just for neatness' sake, I'm going to leave them that way. I don't plan to make many more of these diagrams, maybe one', and I suspect I'll just use the APL approach (copying an existing diamond) rather than the Pascal/Modula-2 approach of creating one "properly" from scratch. However, I copied and pasted into my MS Word document "Style Guide Keith.docx" for when I next need a funny-shaped text frame. Thanks again!

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Mentor ,
Feb 22, 2025 Feb 22, 2025

@Robert at ID-Tasker you missed bringToFront(ref) which in theory should work similar to move(… LocationOptions.BEFORE …) .

Unfortunately here it also fails, complaining the objects have different parents.

Adding a group via grp.groups.add(app.selection,…) also failed.

 

Edit:

My UI steps removed, they were a duplicate of Keith's. I should not post on tiny laptop screens.

Robert, maybe contentPlace() gets you further?

 

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Community Expert ,
Feb 23, 2025 Feb 23, 2025

Yes, you can ungroup and regroup, but this is an extra step and it would save a bunch of time to just select the elements in the layers panel and group them.

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Engaged ,
Feb 23, 2025 Feb 23, 2025

Well, I tried something like your method, and ran into an unexpected problem. The one thing I didn't do as you suggested was that I did scale, using x=0 and y=50, to get the exact right shape. I don't know, maybe that's the problem but I don't think so.

 

With my method of two text boxes, I was able to over-fill some of the diamonds, and with the single text frame, even though I tried to over-fill the diamonds (which I need for this flowchart), I was unable to figure out how to do this. See the picture: my original two-text-frame version on the top, the version done sort of like you suggested on the bottom. I tried setting the inset to a negative value but InDesign wouldn't let me. Sigh.

Decision-Diamonds.jpg

 

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LEGEND ,
Feb 23, 2025 Feb 23, 2025
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@keithconover

. Yes, with two separate objects - TF for text and Rectangle for shape - you'll have much greater control over the text.

 

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