Outline text with bullets & numbering

[lingl87007791]

I can't seem to outline bullets and numbering along with text in Indesign cc 2018. Once I click "create outlines" bullets and numbering would disappear. Is it just me? Does anyone else experience this issue?

[Barb Binder]

Hi lingl87007791:

Why do you want to outline bullets and numbers? You certainly don't need to, nor is it a good workflow. That said, there is a bug in InDesign that makes bullets and numbers disappear when you outline them: bullets disappear when you outline the text – Adobe InDesign Feedback..

~Barb

[BobLevine]

This is perfectly normal expected behavior. Bullets and numbers are enhancements to the text just like underlines.

Like Barb, I’d like to know why you’d even think this was good idea.

[Jeff Witchel, ACI · Accepted solution]

Why you would like to outline any text is beyond me.

But if you must, try the following:

1. Select the Numbered or Bulleted paragraphs.
2. Under the Options menu of the Paragraph panel, choose either "Convert Numbering to Text" OR "Convert Bullets to Text."
3. Outline your text and the numbers or bullet will not disappear, they will be outlined.

[erinagraves]

Thank you! I had no idea that I needed to choose that option as to not lose my bullets upon text outline. I always convert all text to outlines when sending files to the printer. 

[Dov Isaacs · Accepted solution]

Like the others who have responded to you, I will note that “outlining text” is an exceptionally poor workflow practice. The exceptions are:

(1)     You need to achieve some artistic effect with some limited text that cannot otherwise be achieved with other InDesign effects that work with text.

(2)     You need vectors for purposes of sending artwork to sign cutting or similar systems that cannot handle text as realized via fonts.

The fact that you are concerned about full paragraphs with bullets an numbering is indicative that neither of these situations are the case here.

Note that when you “outline text” you end up with a terribly bloated PDF file that (1) takes longer to display or print, (2) may yield blotchy overly-bold looking text, (3) is not searchable, and (4) cannot be edited in Acrobat (for text touchup). Other than that, it is real dandy!

However, if you really need to outline text (possibly because some dumb, Luddite print service provider “requires” this practice), the best way to do it is to not do it within InDesign - keep text “live” there - but to use Acrobat Pro Preflight's fixup to convert text to outlines. That will convert all text to outlines, including paragraph bullets and numbers.

          - Dov

[auxiliaryjoel]

Please unmark this as the correct Answer. This is not the correct answer. The Correct answer wsa submitted by TrapTurkey on Jul 15, 2020

[auxiliaryjoel]

This is not the correct answer.

[auxiliaryjoel]

This is not the correct answer. Please unmark it as being the correct answer.

[defaultks8d4yvdbu1n]

As a "professional" this is quite an ignorant and uneducated response, not just you.. a number of people above..

I can tell you outlining text is quite common. For example Im working within the signage and wayfinding sector, I outline text daily.

Another example, Im designing a number of large exhibition panels for an interpretation piece - again, all this text is outlined.

[BobLevine]

Do you have any idea who you just replied to?

There are very few people on this planet with the level of knowledge that Dov has. While you may be a "professional," you are not in his league.

You need to find new printers or do the outlining in Acrobat. The right tool for the right job is something that any "professional" should abide by.

[defaultks8d4yvdbu1n]

Why would I outline files in acrobat, as a "professional" bob? How do I keep a live working version..

I work in indesign, and export as a PDF. As many "professionals" within this sector no doubt do the same. This isn't basic print work, were talking large scale wayfinding projects. Can guarantee every production partner we work with would bat any live files right back at me bob 🙂

[BobLevine]

You'd still have a live InDesign file and that's what you need if you ever have to make a change.

Converting to outlines in Acrobat is the way to handle this and if you don't want real advice and don't like the answers you get why would you even add your $0.02 to a conversation?

[maara_p]

If anyone with admin rights is reading this, please do the right thing and mark either Jeff Witchel's or TrapTurkey's reply as the correct answer.

Dov Isaacs's reply is indeed a very useful sidenote but it is NOT the answer to the question asked in the first place.
It's annoying to have to read through so much condescending exhibitionism to get to an actual answer.

See, when I'm making a pie and come to buy sugar, I don't want to hear a lecture about how unhealthy it is, do I.

[Willi Adelberger]

As it is, it is correct. Never outline text in InDesign.

[Creamer Training]

There was only factual information in Dov Isaac's reply--I see nothing condescending in it (unless one is a Luddite print service provider...). He actually gave the best solution in the last paragraph.

Sometimes the best answer is not a direct answer to the question. 

[maara_p]

Ok, my bad, I only realized there actually was the Acrobat Pro advice in Dov Isaac's post after I posted mine (I wanted to edit my reply accordingly but I don't have edit rights).

I appreciate you marking Jeff Witchel's reply correct too. Thank you.

[lingl87007791]

Thank you Dov and Jeff!

I had to outline the text since my file contains a system font (which is not available on Windows) that can't be packaged. The last time I sent my PDF file to the printshop they somehow managed to change all the font, so I decided to outline everything.

Anyhow, it'd be very helpful if Indesign could outline bullets and numbering as part of the paragraph within one click.

[Steve Werner]

I don't want InDesign engineers wasting their time outlining bullets and numbering when there's a perfectly good way to do it in Acrobat. There are much more important real bugs to fix.

99% of InDesign users have no practical use for outlining.

[Dov Isaacs]

If you sent a PDF file with all fonts embedded to a printer and the fonts got substituted, it is clear evidence that the printer is not to be trusted. It is possible that the printer is opening up your PDF files in Illustrator (which is not a PDF file editor) and resaving same which would indeed result in the symptoms you are seeing. If this is the case, find another printer; this one can't be trusted.

          - Dov

[SJRiegel]

Dov

Unfortunately, "find another printer" is not always an option.

Where I work, all printing is handled through the Purchasing department; they choose the printers and we provide the files. Some of the printers they use require fonts to be outlined, so we are stuck with providing files with outlined fonts. For these printers, we use the Acrobat preflight option.

[Dov Isaacs]

That is most unfortunate since quality generally suffers from such outlined mishegoss!

It also means you need to keep both the original PDF file around for screen display and the ruined one for your Neanderthal printers.

Maybe you might try educating “the Purchasing department” that reliable, 21st century print service providers don't have stupid requirements such as outlining text, converting everything to DeviceCMYK, etc.

          - Dov

[SJRiegel]

We have had this discussion more than once - but they will always use the printers that give the best price, as long as the quality of the final printed pieces is acceptable. (Screen display is not so much of an issue, since most of what we do is packaging). 

Not every printer they use requires this, but a few of the major ones do.

[lingl87007791]

Indeed! It's quite common among small/start-up companies. The place I work for rely on print shops on Taobao and Alibaba to reduce cost, lots of time their staff aren't trained to handle files properly.

Back to the outline conversation, it's more of an UX issue rather than a bug. I understand that it makes sense from an engineer's perspective, however as a user I'm definitely not expecting a part of the paragraph to disappear - even a pop up window stating certain things can't be outlined would be nice. That's being said, I agree with Steve that engineers should focus on major problems, and this issue is by no means necessary to solve. I might even be the only person who think it is an issue.

[andy_white]

I have a preflight droplet saved for this very reason. Signage companies often request outlined fonts for Computer Cut Vinyl items so we make PDFs with embedded fonts and if they request PDFs with outlined fonts we drop the PDFs on the Acrobat Preflight droplet and forward them.

You shouldn't need to outline fonts in indesign but like you I often get asked for them. I think older print companies run on the mantra 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' hence this issue. Often these are client preferred (cheaper) suppliers.