Problem: scale text as part of a group

[juleens95082705]

Hi everyone,

this problem has been driving me nuts for ages now and I've decided I've finally had enough, so desperately hoping to find some help here.

I don't think it has anything to do with my ID version or system as I said I've had this problem for years over different devices, but just in case I'm using CC2019 on MacOS High Sierra.

Initial problem: I want to scale a group that contains one or more text boxes. If I enlarge the group by pressing shift + cmd and dragging the corners OR entering a percentage, it seems to work just fine. However if I want to scale the group down with the same method my text doesn't fit the bounding box anymore.
I then tried to change my preferences to "When Scaling -> Adjust scaling percentage" before scaling, but it gives me the dreaded "font-size in parenthesis problem". I googled again and saw that a lot of people suggested to select the option "redefine scaling to 100%" to fix the parenthesis and it seemed to work for everyone except me - when doing this, again my text doesn't fit the bounding box anymore. The text size seems correct but when selecting this option something seems to be off with the tracking? (see screenshots) Again I googled, but couldn't find anything about it.

I don't know if I'm missing something super obvious there but I'm sure it can't be such a pain to simply scale things?

[JeffArdoise]

I've tried a couple of things and can consistantly get what I want IF, I use the black arrow to modify the group of text frame, and use cmd+shift drag to resize. If you have the text tool and try to do that, it won't work. If you use the black arrow tool and use only shift, it will do exactly like your example. I've tried with one text frame and two text frame grouped together with cmd+g. In my preferences I have the option to When Scaling: apply to content, include stroke weight and include Effects or checked.

HTH

[juleens95082705]

Thanks for your answer Jeff.
However I still couldn't get it to work unfortunately. I have always used the black arrow and shift+cmd and my preferences are the same.
One other thing that I noticed though, and maybe that is why it worked for you(?): the text not fitting in the bounding box anymore only occurs when I scale down further than about 70%. If I only scale down to about 80% everything still looks normal...

[rob day]

I have always used the black arrow and shift+cmd

With the Transform tool Shift -Command doesn't work for me—try Shift only.

[rob day]

I think Jeff is right, if you use the Text tool with Shift+Command on a text frame inside of a group you are scaling the text’s parent frame and not the text or entire group. Try using the Free Transform or Selection tool with just the Shift key, which will scale the entire group proportionally. If you have your General>Object Editing preference set to Apply to Content the Font Size field will also scale to a single value.

[juleens95082705]

Thank you Rob, it still doesn't work though unfortunately (see my reply to Jeff). I've always been using the selection tool, using the Free Transform tool gets me the same result.

[DBLjan · Accepted solution]

Hey,

I wanted to chime in and backup juleens95082705​ and yet discovered the actual setting to avoid this.
First I wanted to suggest, what I do if the textbox is oversetting upon scaling: use auto-adjust-size-textboxoption.

But then I tried a bit, and found that kerning on <optical> behaves like this:

Then i switched kerning to <metrical>, and voilá:

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Optical kerning, I’m against it. That said, maybe for a one time header on posters it can be nice, for the rest I use Metric, ads the font designer intended. Optical messes up numbers as well, use metric and Old style figures is better.

[rob day]

Trying to replicate your problem, I did notice that Shift+Command with the Selection tool is sensitive to the order in which I press the keys. So pressing the Shift key followed by the Command key doesn't always work, while starting the drag with the Command key and adding the Shift key after I start to drag does work.

[juleens95082705]

DBLjan Thanks for your suggestion, I tried it and you're right about the optical vs metrical kerning. I did in fact apply optical kerning in my example. However what if for some reason you want/"need" optical kerning?
I would have liked to try your other suggestion with the "auto-adjust-size-textboxoption" but tbh I don't know where to find this option...?

rob day​ I tried all of your suggestions but I always get the same result 😕 but thanks anyway!

[rob day]

That’s not normal behavior—shift only with the Transform tool should work, have you tried trashing your preferences?

[JeffArdoise]

hmm, that's weird rob day​ I have to hold cmd+shift, THEN drag the group handle to scale and keep all the text. If I use the shift only the text gets overset. If I click on the handle before holding down the cmd and Shift key, it doesn't work either. So the order you do things does matter.

[rob day]

If I use the shift only the text gets overset.

Right that's what I get. With the Selection tool, if I drag the text frame with no modifier keys, the text reflows as expected. If I hold down the Command key before I start the drag the text frame and contents scale unconstrained. I have to add the Shift key after the Command key in order to constrain.

With no modifiers the Transform tool should always scale the frame and contents, and it constrains when modified with just the  Shift key.

If I modify the Transform tool with just the Command key the text reflows, but apparently juleens95082705​ has tried the Transform tool without the Command key and the text is still reflowing, that's why I suggested resetting Prefs.

[JeffArdoise]

With no modifiers the Transform tool should always scale the frame and contents, ...

rob day​ I'm not seeing the same thing as you then. If I use only the black arrow (selection tool), the frame resizes but not the type inside those frames. I need to hold down Command (Before) I start moving the handle to resize so the text also scales with the frame. If I want to scale proportionally, then you need Shift.

[rob day]

If I use only the black arrow (selection tool), the frame resizes but not the type inside those frames.

That's what I get (using the Selection tool with no modifier keys)

I need to hold down Command (Before) I start moving the handle to resize so the text also scales with the frame. If I want to scale proportionally, then you need Shift.

That's also what I get with Selection tool along with the modifier keys (as long as Shift isn't pressed first).

The Transform tool works differently, the Command key alone makes it act like the Selection tool with no modifier keys

[DBLjan]

juleens95082705​, heres what youre looking for:

Select a textbox and hit cmd+b and select this

and the box will auto-grow with content, thus cant be set/scaled/edited to overset.

[Scott Falkner]

Optical kerning applies different kerning values based on text size. If you need optical kerning and you will be scaling the text, then you need the kerning to change as you scale the text, because that’s what optical kerning does.

instead, apply the kerning manually. Use cursor keys to navigate through he text character by character. Anyplace you see kerning applied in the Control Panel and you see parenthesis around the number change the kerning manually to the same value. Then turn off optical kerning. You’ll have the same result but none of the problems.

[DBLjan]

I guess there is/should be a script for that, processing thru the characters and "hard"-setting the auto-kerning values to kerning values. Maybe it is part of an InDesign feature already, but I havent discovered it yet, nor needed it 🙂

My idea is to implement it here. Since the view on kerning field changes from value to metric/optical if you select more than one character, it can be used here. Maybe it should be greyed out if metric is applied, name it "Apply optic values" or "convert to optic values" or something like that.

[Laubender]

Hi Jan,

this script should do what you want with selected text:

/**
* @@@BUILDINFO@@@ Apply-ManualKerning-to-OpticalKerning-Text-TEXT-SELECTION.jsx !Version! Wed Jul 10 2019 10:10:42 GMT+0200
*/
/*
    Script by Uwe Laubender
    All selected text should be with Optical Kerning.
    The script will pick up all kerning values like: (-109)
    And apply manual kerning like: -109
*/
( function()
{
    if( app.documents.length == 0 ){ return };
    if( app.selection.length != 1 ){ return };
    if( !app.selection[0].hasOwnProperty( "baselineShift" ) ){ return };
    var textSelection = app.selection[0];
    var insPoints = textSelection.insertionPoints.everyItem().getElements();
    var kerningValuesArray = [];
    for(var n=0; n<insPoints.length; n++ )
    {
        try{ kerningValuesArray = insPoints.kerningValue }catch(e){ kerningValuesArray = "ERROR" };
    };
    textSelection.kerningMethod = "$ID/Metrics" ;
    for(var n=0; n<kerningValuesArray.length; n++ )
    {
        if( kerningValuesArray == "ERROR" ){ continue };
        insPoints.kerningValue = kerningValuesArray ;
    };
}() )

Do some tests also with text that has mixed kerning: Optical, Metric and Manual kerning.

Regards,
Uwe

[DBLjan]

Works like a charm Just to say: Text must be selected.

And again, everybody, hooray for Uwe Laubender – you're so awesome helping people out with your script skills.

juleens95082705​, do you know how to get Uwes script to work?
You could use it to "convert" your "Kinikana" if set to <optical> kerning to maintain the exact look after scaling.

But that would be a bit contrary, because optical kerning differs upon text size, like Scott Falkner​ explained.

[juleens95082705]

rob day​ I tried to reset my preferences but it also doesn't help :// however as I said, I've had this problem almost as long as I can remember on different versions of ID and on pc as well so i don't think it's a problem of preferences?

DBLjan​ thanks, I've tried it and it seems like the best solution so far together with your suggestion to change optical to metrical kerning. However I'm very confused about the scaling in general now. If I scale things proportionally (with selection tool + shift + cmd OR transform tool + shift) shouldn't everything stay exactly in place where it was originally except that it gets bigger/smaller?

If I scale and apply the auto-adjust-size-textbox-option I would have expected the pink boxes to still only touch the font like so:

However if I scale things down the boxes overlap with the font (only very slightly but still):

Or am I having an error in my reasoning there? I still applied optical kerning in this example so I really think that is the problem here. Using metrical kerning everything behaves as expected...

[DBLjan]

I cant pinpoint to the exactly thing InDesign tries to do here, because im no expert on typography. But, as you I too remember living with these slight adjustments since years now. It always bugged me too, that I have to solve overset which wasnt there before scaling. But I grew with it, giving textboxes, which I know will approx. grow the auto-adjust option.

Another thing you could do, and it will definitly scale right with your pink lines, is converting the text into paths, if you want to maintain the exact look.

[rob day]

rob day I tried to reset my preferences but it also doesn't help :// however as I said, I've had this problem almost as long as I can remember on different versions of ID and on pc as well so i don't think it's a problem of preferences?

If you use the Transform Tool (not the black Selection tool) with no modifier keys, does the text and frame scale or does the text reflow? If you are getting the expected scale transform with no modifier keys, it might be a problem with the keyboard or the System Preferences Keyboard settings? I can't reproduce the problem using High Sierra and CC2018.

[DBLjan]

10.13.6+CC18_13.1.1

Still same results, even when trying to use the FreeTransform-tool istead of click+shift+command

Text with optical kerning+FitFrame2Content+Scale down = overset

[rob day]

This is what I get, I'm selecting the text frame inside the group via the Layers panel then transforming with no constraint: