Built in lens profile - disappears and reappears

[ski_guy]

I'm running LRC 11.2 under Monterey 12.3.1. My camera is an Olympus E-M1 Mark III shooting raw files (ORF)with a variety of lenses. I convert all my raw files to DNG when importing. 

The error I'm seeing is in the Develop module's Lens Corrections panel. Somtimes,  I see the message "Build in lens profile applied" for an image but then it will dissapear. Turing the panel checkboxes on/off doesn't get the message to reappear. It's happening inconsitently to all my recent images. Images from 2021 don't show this problem but most of my 2022 images do.

Last night I tried resetting the preferences and that fixed the problem, but only temporarily. When I restarted the LRC application a different set of images failed to show the lens profile message. 

This seems similar to a problem from this thread:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/built-in-lens-profile-disappearing/m-p/...

[DdeGannes]

Lightroom Classic have no Lens profiles for Olympus m4/3 cameras and lenses, if you are shooting to capture raw ORF files and using Olympus lenses the lens correction is applied automatically and there is no option to turn off or on. There are no lens correction available if you are capturing jpeg images.

If your are using original four thirds lenses or third party lenses with an adapter I do not believe if there are lens profiles available.

[ski_guy]

Thanks, I understand that. Lightroom usually recognizes the "built in"
profile that is part of the lens firmware and embedded in the ORF file. My
problem is that sometimes LRC is failing to recognize the lens built in
profile.

I'm not referring to the lens profiles that can be manually selected from
the Lens Corrections panel. When Lightroom is using a built in profile it
normally puts a message at the bottom of the Lens Corrections panel. I see
that for some images but not others from the same camera, lens and shoot.

[DdeGannes]

Ok, I have no reason why that would happen, other than the issues I included in my reply.

[ski_guy]

I'm shooting raw ORF files--not JPEG--and using Olympus or OM-System m4/3 lenses. So that's not the issue. In fact the "built in profile" message appears for some images from those same lenses but not others.

I think it's a bug and hope somebody from Adobe will see this thread and fix it or tell me how to fix it locally on my system. 

[johnrellis]

See my detailed reply in that old thread you found:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/built-in-lens-profile-disappearing/m-p/...

Select one of the photos for which "Built-in lens profile applied" fails to appear, and wait for several minutes -- does the message eventually appear?

I vaguely recall another thread years ago about the same issue and determining that the lens profile was applied, it was just the message that wasn't appearing. But I'm not confident about that.  You could test that with these steps:

1. Select an image for which the message isn't showing.

2. Export the image.

3. Reset preferences.

4. When the message appears on that image, compare it with the version you exported to see if the lens profile was applied.

[ski_guy]

I tried wating for an hour and the message "Build in lens profile applied" never appeared. Based on the appearance of the image, I belive that the profile is being applied. I'm just not getting the message.

[johnrellis]

"Based on the appearance of the image, I belive that the profile is being applied. I'm just not getting the message."

There's clearly a problem in LR that strikes rarely in ways we don't understand.  Until there's a simple recipe for reproducing the error, Adobe is very unlikely to pay attention.  But at least you know the profile is being applied.

[DRYoho]

As you are aware, m43 and now many other new mirrorless cameras, have built-in lens profiles. The lens correction data is located in the file metadata and Adobe applies the corrections automatically and you cannot even turn the corrections on or off.  Adobe does not supply native lens profiles for m43 (although there are some third party lenses with lens profiles). As you note, the Develop Module Lens Correction Panel usually shows "Built in lens profile applied" but for some odd reason you are experiencing inconsistent messages regarding application of the built-in lens profile metadata. Unfortunately, I do not have a direct answer for this issue but like others have speculated, I'd bet it's a bug. However, I wanted to make you and others aware of another issue that could be confusing and could, somehow be remotely related. In late 2021 Adobe began allowing manual application of  lens profiles that are built-in the metadata. Evidently this change is only for some new cameras and is not applicable to older cameras, cameras prior to the change in late 2021, such as the OLY EM1.3. I have the new OM-1 and much to my surprise I discovered that for MOST lenses, LR Classic is using the metadata to fill in the lens profile data AND the lens correction can be turned on and off using the check box! I can actually see the correction change in the photo by applying and turning off the profile. There are still no native profiles installed-the lens data is still coming from the built-in metadata. The "built-in" message is no longer displayed. I mentioned "most" lenses--my 17, 12-100, 40-150, and 7-14 lens data shows up but my 300 does not. So, this is a big change from years of prior behavior, at least for some newer cameras (I've owned m43 OLY cameras and used LR since day 1 so I know how LR has worked with these cameras and lenses all these years). I've seen threads about this same issue with newer Nikon cameras also. I wonder if this change could contribute to some unusual or inconsistant behavior in the prior models such as the EM1.3?

[ski_guy]

It's an interesting observation.

After a recent delete and restore of preferences the "Buit-in lens profile
applied" message came back for all the images. I tried turning of the two
checkboxes in the Lens Corrections panel and I also tried turning the panel
on/off.

I wasn't able to see any changes to the images shot with my E-M1 Mark III
and a recent 8-25mm lens.

[DRYoho]

This new lens correction behavior only applies to camera bodies after late 2020 (I said 2021 but meant 2020), so for Oly and OM Digital Systems, that means the OM-1 as far as I know. The lenses, however, can be older lenses since they still contain the lens correction metadata. @johnrellis has added some additional good info below.

[johnrellis]

"for MOST lenses, LR Classic is using the metadata to fill in the lens profile data AND the lens correction can be turned on and off using the check box"

Adobe has clarified that whether the you can disable the automatic application of the embedded lens profile depends on both the camera and the lens.  Manufacturers are still requesting Adobe that some camera/lens combinations still apply the embedded profile automatically, without the possibility of the user disabling it.

Adobe still hasn't documented this new behavior, nearly two years after it was introduced:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/camera-raw-discussions/out-of-date-help-page-for-embedded-lens-profil...

[ski_guy]

Doing a quick check of the half dozen lenses I've shot with my EM1.3 I can't see and changes turning Lens Corrections on/off.

[DRYoho]

I had researched this issue last week and also came to the conclusion that Adobe had not documented the new behavior. The last (Apr) LR Lens Correction update still shows the note about m43 and built-in profiles without mention of any new behavior.  I had seen speculation that some manufacturers still required automatic built-in correction. Wish there was some documentation regarding manufacturers, applicable cameras, and lenses.  Thanks for your insight on this issue!

[johnrellis]

"I wonder if this change could contribute to some unusual or inconsistent behavior in the prior models such as the EM1.3?"

The change to the behavior of embedded lens profiles was made in LR 9.4, released August 2020. But this problem with intermittent disappearance of "Built-in Lens Profile applied" was previously reported a year earlier in May 2019. So that indicates the problem isn't caused by the change made in LR 9.4.

[DRYoho]

@johnrellis   Excellent point with the dates!  The two issues do not look related. And thanks for date clarification of LR 9.4--I meant late 2020 but said 2021.  So it's been over a year and a half of the new lens correction behavior and still no good documentation! 

[SFsix]

I have noticed the same issues. See attached to files. In one screenshot the lens profile is automaticalls applied. The other example shows a Adobe profile. I can toggle this on and off, but not with the embedded profle.

Is it a LR bug?

[DdeGannes]

@SFsix , are both images captured with the same Camera model?

[SFsix]

First one is taken with a G9 (lens profile automatically applied)  and the second one with a G9 II.

However when using the 12-60 F2.8-4 on my E-M10 IV LR does apply the profile automatically just on my G9 (I).

[DdeGannes]

So it appears Adobe has created a specific lens profile for that Camera model and lens.

[johnrellis]

The original problem in this thread, with the message "Built-in lens profile applied" appearing only intermittently, was eventually identified as a bug:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-bugs/p-quot-built-in-lens-profile-applied-quot-isn-...

The problem goes away if you disable the option "Use Smart Previews Instead Of Originals For Image Editing", which is why resetting preferences usually fixed the problem.

[johnrellis]

[This post contains formatting and embedded images that don't appear in email. View the post in your Web browser.]

G9 on the left, G9 II on the right:

 

I verified with some more sample raws for those two cameras from dpreview.com: Both cameras embed lens profiles from Panasonic into their raws. For older cameras like the G9, LR always applies the embedded lens profile. For newer combinations of cameras and lens, where the manufacturer has decided to allow it, the user is given the option of disabling the embedded lens profile. As seen in the screen shot above, "Profile: Camera Settings" indicates that the lens profile is coming from the raw itself.

Unfortunately, Adobe has never documented this "new" behavior of lens profiles, and the existing documentation is wrong and out-of-date.