Color Space Issues Again

Community Beginner ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Hi all.

 

I'm sincerely hoping for support in alleviating my headache. 

 

Back in November I was having issues with a Photoshop export displaying incorrect colors IN PHOTOSHOP when placed on top of the originating file.

 

Perhaps my communication was poor, though I am more inclined to believe that it was a case of, "it ain't what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

 

Several people attempting to help were insisting that it was because my monitor wasn't calibrated correctly or I wasn't looking in a color managed app.. even after I explained that doesn't make any sense because I'm looking at the exported picture after bringing it back into Photoshop on the same monitor in a program with the same color management. 😆

After a week, finally someone paid attention and decided to do their own test with my image and sure enough using the tool to measure the RGB values, they saw there was indeed a discrepancy and it turned out there was a bug in Photoshop that my observation of the color difference had alerted them to.

Photoshop was converting files when it shouldn't have been and I guess the air got reported. You can see it in my other posts and I'll link it below if you care to have a headache.

 

Now, the backstory is important because I'm having issues again and I very much appreciate it when people are willing to experience something that seems familiar for the completely new and novel experience it is. 

 

Currently I am getting a photo ready for my printer as it is running in a promotion in my store soon.

First I imported the digital negative (dng) into Lightroom where I made the basic adjustments. I then selected to further edit in Photoshop where I simply placed my signature in the lower left corner. I understand I can add a watermark upon export from lightroom, though I prefer to play with certain images a bit in Photoshop just to see if I'm missing something; changing rooms moving to a new environment etc will make things stand out that weren't visible before.

 

When I finished with my editing in Photoshop I saved it as a Photoshop document. The entire time I've been working in prophoto RGB. 

 

Upon accessing the PSD (the photo now having been further edited by Photoshop) in Lightroom, I do a final look over and then choose to export the photo.

The settings requested by my printing company are for a PNG file in the sRGB color space. 

The reason for this is because their AI software immediately creates mock-ups of the image I upload in different print mediums and with frames etc so that I have digital assets for marketing. They're also displayed on the website of my printing company and of course, srgb for the win.

 

Further, since it is not uncommon for them to find something else to make an adjustment on, I send them 16-bit files rather than take the chance of them creating holes in an 8-bit file.

 

So those are my settings in the export dialog from Lightroom classic. I have chosen a PNG 300 DPI in the srgb color space.

Upon investigating the exported photo, my media info program is telling me it is in the RGBA color space and if I open this newly exported photo into Photoshop Photoshop tells me it is in RGB. 

 

I love to learn. I come from learner space. I hate being wrong and the best way to shift to right when I find that I am wrong, is to simply admit it. 

 

So I very much appreciate new information and anyone who can tactfully point out my error.

 

Having now gone through the entire process several times transferring the photo from lightroom as a raw dng in prophoto RGB color space to edit in Photoshop, preserving those settings, then choosing to save it as a psd and access it again (the new saved version) in Lightroom to export as srgb in a PNG container, I've narrowed it down to:

A. I have an insufficient understanding of the limitations of the PNG container (as in I know you can't tag CMYK on a PNG but maybe there's more like maybe it can't be 16 bits but I'm going to have to Google that I'm pretty sure that's not the case and that wouldn't answer the question of why selecting srgb in my export is giving me a converted rgba file.)

B. The people at Adobe are attempting to make color science useless by not following standards, randomly retagging or converting stuff (as was the error we discovered with my last major challenge), or otherwise adding massive confusion and variation to a science that is hard enough when everything IS working.

 

😆

 

For real though.. it's not just Adobe. I'm beginning to think no one understands color science really. There's little agreement, no absolute standard, and for what standards there are, most apps and devices ignore them while others inadvertantly f them up.

 

Perhaps most people cannot see a minor hue or luminance variance. I'm not neurotypical. The gift that lets me sing with perfect pitch also lets me see when a painting on the wall is 1 mm askew and I've recently discovered I have greater sensitivity to hue shifts than the average person (as evidenced by not one other professional photographer being able to see the difference in the colors with my last challenge while it was glaringly obvious to me.)

 

As usual, I'm a bit long-winded.

I appreciate your patience. I appreciate your dedication. I appreciate your support.

Even if your suggestion or advice isn't the peace that directly solves the issue, it's all about being in motion.

You could be doing something else but instead you're here helping me and others.

So props on that.

 

In summary

Why the fudk are my 16-bit srgb PNG files being tagged rgba by Lightroom? 😆✌️💚

 

Here is the readout from MediaInfo.

You will have to trust that on the export dialog box I am correctly setting 16 bits, png, and srgb for color space because I don't feel like going in and taking a screenshot, pasting it in Photoshop editing it saving it as the right size and uploading it to post here. 😆

 

General

Complete name : F:\Pictures\NewPicLocation For Web Share\Ore BnW Test AGAIN (1 of 1).png

Format : PNG

Format/Info : Portable Network Graphic

File size : 296 MiB

 

Image

Format : PNG

Format/Info : Portable Network Graphic

Compression : Deflate

Width : 10 897 pixels

Height : 6 123 pixels

Color space : RGBA

Bit depth : 16 bits

Compression mode : Lossless

Stream size : 296 MiB (100%)

 

 

 

It is 3:27pm where I live in Michigan and I've been working on this since 9pm last night. 😮

I am going to go get a couple hours of sleep at least and I look forward to seeing who's replied when I return to the waking world.

 

I've also attached an 8bit RGBA tagged 8bit PNG so you can see what you're helping me with. ✌️

And as an aside, if you have experience printing on HD metal, I wonder if it's a good format for black and white or what your preferred medium is for black and white photography. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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There's a long standing bug in Photoshop that prevents embedding the profile when saving as PNG.

I thought this had been fixed, but I just tried to save a PNG in PS 23.2.1, and even when checking ICC profile in the Save dialog, the profile is not embedded. (the image you posted doesn't have a profile either)

This explains the color difference when you open the PNG in Photoshop.

 

For the record, the PNG format is designed for web graphics, and it's not commonly used for printing.

Recommended formats are Tiff or jpg.

 

I suggest that you just save the file in Photoshop, which will send it back to Lightroom, and then export a PNG from Lightroom, which will embed the profile.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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No such bug on this end (on Mac), PNG's have embedded profiles. V23.2.2. The checkbox isn't sticky which is kind of a bug.

I totally agree with Per, don't use PNG for printing or anything that doesn't demand a PNG.


Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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I know of no such 'bug' in Photoshop so you should first provide exactly what was going on to come to that conclusion.
You have a ProPhoto RGB image in Photoshop and you want sRGB; convert it to sRGB in Photoshop. I don't know why you'd place it back into LR other than to keep its location within a DAM but don't futz with it in Develop or apply edits; leave it alone.

CMYK is a huge world or potential hurt me buttons! Who's doing the conversion, with what profile to what device? Further, why is PNG entering the picture here?


Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Hey Digital!

 

I'm inspecting your suggestion to convert to srgb in Photoshop.

How would one go about this?

It's not an option in the drop-down, "mode," menu. 

The only sRGB tagged PNG I have been able to get out of Photoshop is 8 bit and it comes from using the, "export," dialog rather than the, "save as," dialog. 

For my personal web shares and design elements, I'm fine rendering my final as an 8 bit PNG tagged sRGB. 

When there will likely be further adjustments, my understanding is the ideal is to maintain 16bits all the way until the final deliverable to prevent holes, banding, posterization, etc.

 

After my group reply, I've spent more time in Lightroom and Photoshop looking at the situation through fresh eyes.. but the fresh eyes got an, "I told you so," and eye roll from my sardonic shadow. 😆🤷

 

 

So again, if you know a way to convert the color to sRGB in Photoshop, I'd love to find a solution. 

Thanks for your time.

✌️

 

Let me know, as well, if there is specific detail or info I've omitted that would help you troubleshoot.

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Edit: Convert to Profile. Select sRGB.


Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Thank you very much.

This is news to me.

I was definitely doing that wrong.

I happened to discover it just a few minutes before your reply.

I appreciate that you opened my eyes to this.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Thanks y'all.

 

Digital dog, here's a link to the PREVIOUS challenge.

https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/quot-embed-color-profile-quot-not-wor...

 

It was SOLVED by DaveSCM who confirmed the bug.

 

I provided that information in a hopes to prevent being condescended to about my current issue. 😉

 

It seems instead I've muddied the waters. As both replies seem to have cross bread my backstory with the current issue.

 

The current issue is:

When I export a photo from Lightroom and select 16-bit PNG with an srgb tag, it gives me a file with an RGBA tag.

 

 

What I need is a 16-bit PNG tagged with srgb color space.

Insofar as I understand, both Photoshop and Lightroom ought to be able to deliver this. Insofar as I understand I've taken the proper action and followed every step everyone has suggested and it's not yielding the appropriate result.

 

As for your question about why would I bring it back into Lightroom?

I'll Trump that question with why would Lightroom automatically load pictures sent from Lightroom to photoshop back into Lightroom when you're done in Photoshop if there wasn't a reason to bring them back to Lightroom? 🤷

 

You obviously have more experience than me. If you like the reward of seeing someone you have empowered go on to do great things, then hold on tight. 

Of the many things I am good at, learning is the best. 💪

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do I bring it back to Lightroom?

Because I cannot save a 16-bit PNG with an srgb tag in Photoshop. 

 

Why does my printer want the file as a PNG in sRGB?

Because it is first used as a display image for the web. That happens immediately. It doesn't get printed until I actually get an order. 

Priority goes to having a well represented image of my art in our online stores. 

 

However why we want it is irrelevant. If it's something that we ought to be able to do in the world of possibilities then I want to be able to do it.

 

Per, (cool name)

My Question here and pardon the poor communication, is about Lightroom.

I had already done exactly as you suggested as a workaround since Photoshop wouldn't let me save the PNG with the appropriate profile. 

When I choose the export dialog in Lightroom, I'm very familiar with this export window, I've exported very very many pictures.

I select 16-bit PNG and for the color space I select srgb.

The file it outputs is rgba. I cannot share that file because it's 250 megs.

 

 

So right now neither of my Adobe photo products will give me the main file type that I need for my printer.

🤷

 

It also blows my mind that I'm the only person who seems to be noticing this bug.

Since PNG is for displaying images online and srgb is the color space for the online environment, you'd think someone would notice that you can't export a 16-bit photo with an srgb tag as a PNG from any of the programs.

 

🤷

 

What else am I missing?

I'm ready for some more solution oriented thinking.

I'm going to mess around with it a little bit more and then come back to see what everyone has to say.

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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The PNG format is 8-bit only.

Although you can choose 16-bit when exporting a PNG from Lightroom (this should be disabled for PNG), you'll get an 8-bit file.

When I export a PNG from Lr, choosing sRGB for color space, I get an sRGB PNG.

If you don't, try resetting the preferences.

Or, you have Adobe RGB set as your working space in Photoshop, and have set RGB Color Management Policies to Convert to working RGB. If so, change it to Preserve embedded profiles.

 

And there is no color space named RGBA as far as I know.

I'm guessing that you mean Adobe RGB.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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LR will 'export' a new iteration after editing in any color space (and file format it supports) you first tell it to in the Export dialog.

In LR, if I then I select a TIFF in ProPhoto RGB and ask for a PNG in sRGB, I get a PNG in sRGB. As I'd expect.

Again, I have no idea why you'd take a ProPhoto RGB document and not convert it to sRGB there and then load it into LR to export as sRGB/PNG  but I can tell you that if I do so, I get a PNG in sRGB as I requested. Just like Per so, no bug.

IF you don't see the same, you should reset your LR preferences and try again.


Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Alright. I'm processing the info y'all shared.

 

Per, 

RGBA A is for Alpha. 

I'm not referring to Adobe RGB.

I'm simply telling you the color space tag that is in my metadata. It is tagged, "RGBA," and a Google search informed me what that space is as I hadn't encountered it yet either.

 

Further, I've thought I had confirmed over and over that PNG can contain 16 bits per channel.

Asking Google, "can PNG support 16 bits?" The first reply I get is from LibPNG.org Article on PNG format :

"As with RGB and gray+alpha, PNG supports 8 and 16 bits per sample for RGBA or 32 and 64 bits per pixel, respectively. Pixels are always stored in RGBA order, and the alpha channel is not premultiplied."

 

 

Digital,

I had not re-inspected my Lightroom settings. I will do that now.

Photoshop is set to ask me each time it encounters a color space mismatch. 

 

I'll be back to let you know what I find in my Lightroom settings. 

 

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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UPDATE.

 

Holy macaroni.

I found the, "convert to profile," option under edit in Photoshop. 

I had been going to Image>mode and selecting a profile for my images there.. well clicking that obvs don't do what I thought.

 

So now I have converted it and am saving again as PNG.. Per has already suggested it still won't tag correctly anyway.

 

Looking at this newly saved file (after conversion in Photoshop, save a copy in Photoshop) now my metadata analyzing program, mediainfo reads:

 

Format - PNG

Portable network graphic

Size - 254MiB

 

Compression - deflate

width - 10,897 pixels

height - 6123 pixels

Color space - RGB

Bit depth - 16

Compression mode - lossless

Stream size - 254MiB (100%)

 

So I've got my 16-bit PNG. Though I am not certain about the color space. I will open something that I am certain is tagged srgb to see if media info simply reads srgb as RGB or if I still have the incorrect tag.

 

To your point, Per, I've demonstrated as the article from PNG l i b suggests, pngs can be 16 bit.

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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After Convert to Profile to sRGB, the Color space is sRGB. And you can see this if you set up the Info Palette in PS to show color space and/or the little dropdown menu under each document window (bottom left) again, to show the color space.

See: http://digitaldog.net/files/PhotoshopColorSettings.mp4

Photoshop CC Color Settings and Assign/Convert to Profile video


Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Digitaldog, I continually want to call you Digi or Dawg. 🤷😆

 

I TOTALLY forgot about the info in the lower left corner.

And yes indeed, after converting to sRGB and then save as>save a copy>png in Photoshop, the file is 

A 16 bit PNG in the sRGB space.

 

Oh so grateful, even as I lack clarity on a couple things.

What's important is I have the file I need 

 

Prior to reading your last comment Digitaldog, I was reading this which helped to break down some confusion around the "RGBA" color tag which is listed in the metadata.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGBA_color_model

 

"The term does not define what RGB color space is being used. It also does not state whether or not the colors are premultiplied by the alpha value, and if they are it does not state what color space that premultiplication was done in. This means more information than just "RGBA" is needed to determine how to handle an image."

 

 

So there's that.

 

When you were growing through learning color space, tags, etc. did you ever think the mass of information accumulating in your head was going to become so dense that it caused your skull to implode from the g-force?

 

I have been learning videography at the same time as photography and little things like this, like my media info program telling me the color space is something that isn't even really a color space and another article calling it a color space even though it's not a color space, is so aggravating and confounding.

It's what I was saying initially or in my second reply, there is so much variation and so many people think they understand and then deal out misinformation.

 

Thank you much for your accurate information.

 

One last thought and anything you can tactfully share to this point is appreciated..

I've gotten on with the chat support from Adobe a few times and even as far back as November when I only been working with Adobe for 5 or 6 months it seemed I knew more than the tech support.

One tech support agent from the Adobe chat was insisting that I had to save my file in Photoshop as a dng. 🤷🤦

 

Am I correct to assess that I am much better off coming to these forums than contacting an agent through the chat window?

Or have I just had bum luck with the agents taking my calls?

 

Thanks again!

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Sorry, can't answer your last question about phone support.


Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Glad you got your problem resolved.

 

I am flabbergasted your printing service only takes png. There is no technical reason for that. My printing service takes anything from jpegs to tiffs and psds in any color space and displays the image overlaid on mugs, in frames, on simulated postcards, puzzles, etc. There is no reason whatsoever to use png. It is not a good format for photographic images. It's great for logos and visual elements on websites (it was meant as a successor to gif originally I understand) and logoes though because it can contain an alpha channel as you found out.

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 13, 2022 Apr 13, 2022

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They Do accept the multiple file formats.

 

This is an Online print on demand service. 

 

As such, my images are first displayed in people's web browsers. The format I am submitting to my printer is for web display. 

 

Hence PNG.

 

 

 

I can upload Tiff and jpeg but they look like poop (had to change the word because I was censored. apparently the Adobe algorithm is completely judgmental. What's incredible about this outmoded cultural value, is that I typed a word in that means the exact same thing as the other word and people don't have a problem with it.  It's an irrational absurdity and ones issue with "bad" words Isa direct reflection of how judgmental they are 🤷😆✌️) when someone pulls my page up on Google. 

 

 

 

I am starting a new thread though if anybody can enlighten me and send me a credible resource to empower my making the distinction between COLOR bit depth and Image Compression bit size, I'd be appreciative.

 

I want to more clearly understand the distinctions and the interrelationship.

 

 

 

Thank you

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 13, 2022 Apr 13, 2022

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quote

I can upload Tiff and jpeg but they look like poop (had to change the word because I was censored. apparently the Adobe algorithm is completely judgmental.


By @Hunter Wade

That doesn't make sense, please explain or show via a color managed screen capture.


Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 13, 2022 Apr 13, 2022

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I believe this thread should be in the Photoshop forum not Lightroom Classic forum.

 

Regards, Denis: iMac mid-2015, 5K 27”, GPU 2GB, Ram 24GB, HDD 3TB, macOS 11.6.5,; LrC 11.3.1, Lr 5.3, Ps 23.3.2-ACR 14.3,; Camera OM-D E-M1.

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