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labasaskarolis
Participant
May 28, 2019
Question

Keeping raw image quality in Lr>Ps>Lr workflow

  • May 28, 2019
  • 5 replies
  • 1189 views

Hello!

Here's a problem I've experienced that I haven't found a workaround for:

I'm editing a raw image that I need to use Photoshop to remove a certain object in the background. I imported the image into Lr and created a virtual copy that I opened in Ps (via the Lr function "Edit in Ps".) I edited the image in Ps and saved the Ps file so that the virtual copy in Lr updated to my changes.

The only issue is, to test to see if working on a .psd (the virtual copy which I edited in Ps) had the same quality as the original raw image, I created the same decrease in exposure for both images, but they came out differently. The edited virtual copy had a characteristically .jpg lack of contrast and loss of detail in highlights, while the original image behaved like I expected, the decrease in exposure revealing more of the details in the highlights.

I have tried to save a .TIF image from the Ps file that Lr created and import that into Lr to edit, but that resulted in the same result as when I edited the virtual copy.

Is there a way to edit a raw, in my case a .NEF file, first in Ps and then in Lr without losing what seems to be the raw characteristics of the image?

Thanks in advance,

Karolis

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5 replies

D Fosse
Community Expert
D FosseCommunity Expert
Community Expert
May 29, 2019

What's at the bottom of all this is that a raw file and a rendered RGB file are two very different things.

They will not, and they are not supposed to, react the same way to a numerical slider adjustment in Lightroom. The adjustments are working on different types of data that will respond differently. This is normal and does not in itself indicate data loss.

The reason a raw file can contain "hidden" highlight detail is that it is dynamically compressed. If you could see a raw file directly, it would look like an extremely flat and dull (and dark) monochrome image. When encoded into an RGB color space for output, the data are mapped into a much steeper and gamma-corrected tone response curve. This is necessary to produce a realistic image, but this is also where you risk highlight clipping if you aren't careful.

Rob_Cullen
Community Expert
Rob_CullenCommunity Expert
Community Expert
May 28, 2019

Is there a way to edit a raw, in my case a .NEF file, first in Ps and then in Lr without losing what seems to be the raw characteristics of the image?

There is another approach to your question, with a different workflow-

Select your .NEF image in Lr (be it the original or a VC) and then {Edit In > Open as Smart Object in Photoshop.}

Now in Photoshop you can edit the background 'Smart Object' layer in ACR (double-click the layer image thumbnail) with the 'same' adjustments as in Lr.

Note: This does not alter any adjustments you have made to the image in Lightroom.

Regards. My System: Windows-11, Lightroom-Classic 15.1.1, Photoshop 27.3.1, ACR 18.1.1, Lightroom 9.0, Lr-iOS 10.4.0, Bridge 16.0.2 .
JohanElzenga
Community Expert
JohanElzengaCommunity Expert
Community Expert
May 29, 2019

WobertC  wrote

Is there a way to edit a raw, in my case a .NEF file, first in Ps and then in Lr without losing what seems to be the raw characteristics of the image?

There is another approach to your question, with a different workflow-

Select your .NEF image in Lr (be it the original or a VC) and then {Edit In > Open as Smart Object in Photoshop.}

Now in Photoshop you can edit the background 'Smart Object' layer in ACR (double-click the layer image thumbnail) with the 'same' adjustments as in Lr.

Note: This does not alter any adjustments you have made to the image in Lightroom.

Unfortunately, you cannot clone / heal in a smart object. And removing an object is exactly the reason why to OP is sending the image to Photoshop.

-- Johan W. Elzenga
R
Community Expert
richardplondonCommunity Expert
Community Expert
May 29, 2019

You can clone/heal within a smart object if you use its own ACR spot healing tools - which are the same as those in Lightroom Classic.

That does not help for cloning jobs that are more extensive or more specific than these tools can handle - however, this may help if you suddenly notice that you have missed something in your initial LR cloning of dust-spots or whatever. Also this way, you can later remove or change a clone-heal that was done originally in LR: none of this work has been destructively applied as yet.

Embedded Smart Object workflow comes at a considerable file-size penalty so far as the Photoshop working document, compared with a standard image of the same bit depth and with the same other layers present. It may be found sufficient so far as further adjustability, to set 16-bit and ProPhoto in the LR settings, for standard externally edited images. This minimises the loss of smooth graduations and edge subtleties, which further adjustments will otherwise expose with 8-bit.

OTOH if further adjustment is not expected - if for example, only some compositing is intended - 8-bit is much more economical.

In that context (without Smart Object) to try to carry out all heavy tonal and hue and detail processing within LR before going to PS, seems like a good aim. Then PS editing can concentrate only on alterations (to the picture content) without so much requirement for making adjustments (to the picture processing). Horses for courses!

Other comments: if you have a wish to explore variations within LR (using virtual copies), then all aspects of expected variation can IMO be better left undone when an image first goes to PS.

Then on its return to LR, you can address these aspects non-destructively "for the first time" - including, in varying virtual treatments.

I am thinking of such matters as compositional crop and straightening; perspective transforms; B&W conversion; "effects" treatments such as deliberate colour-casts or film-emulating looks; vignetting and grain; creative local sharpening etc; any added adjustments for output in soft-proof review.

16-bit file format makes far the better source for e.g. later B&W conversion btw. You could use Smart Object with an 8-bit format and this would give you the full depth Raw based editing internally - while adjusting this Smart Object further - but the presentation of that processing which LR then saw, would only be an 8-bit image. Correspondingly, a cruder source for output processing etc.

For example: before sending out to PS, if you Reset any crop, you will then in PS be retouching and saving the entire original picture content. Then back in LR, you can crop freely just the same, both smaller and bigger again, as you would do with any image that had not been to PS. 

Bob Somrak
Bob Somrak
Legend
May 28, 2019

To expand on what Todd Shaner​ and JohanElzenga​ said, do all your Exposure, Highlight, Shadows, Whites, Blacks and Tone curve edits BEFORE you send the to Photoshop.  Then you can edit in Photoshop and save a a PSD or TIFF using 16 bits ProPhoto RGB.   Saving as 16 bit results is big files but you throw too much data away using 8 bit.

M4 Pro Mac Mini. 48GB
JohanElzenga
Community Expert
JohanElzengaCommunity Expert
Community Expert
May 28, 2019

Just as a note: you can’t “edit a virtual copy in Photoshop”. A virtual copy is nothing more than an extra set of edit metadata, belonging to the same original raw file. When you send a raw file to Photoshop, either selecting the original or the virtual copy, you will create a derivative tiff or psd. When that tiff or psd is saved, it will automatically be imported (as a new image) in Lightroom. It does not ‘update’ the virtual copy, it is a new image.

-- Johan W. Elzenga
    Todd Shaner
    Todd Shaner
    Legend
    May 28, 2019

    labasaskarolis  wrote


    The only issue is, to test to see if working on a .psd (the virtual copy which I edited in Ps) had the same quality as the original raw image, I created the same decrease in exposure for both images, but they came out differently. The edited virtual copy had a characteristically .jpg lack of contrast and loss of detail in highlights, while the original image behaved like I expected, the decrease in exposure revealing more of the details in the highlights.

    This is most likely due to highlight clipping, which can be recovered in the raw file. To prevent this from happening at a minimum you should adjust the raw file or virtual copy's Basic panel settings BEFORE creating and editing the Edit in PS copy. Remove any highlight and shadow clipping by holding down the ALT key when adjusting these controls, which allows seeing the areas that are clipped.

    L
    labasaskarolisAuthor
    Participant
    May 28, 2019

    Thank you for this answer.

    There was a brief moment when I thought about doing this and decided against it because it can lead to a destructive workflow (especially if the image edited in Lr is opened in Ps and clone stamped, for example.) I just realized however, that, in my case, I am using masked instances of my image, so I can always replace the masked image, leaving the mask intact.

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