LR doesn't set White Balance temperature correctly on import

[sydneylow]

When I import a Canon RAW file with a manual white balance e.g. 5300K

Lightroom sets it as "As Shot 4650K"

Why does it do that, and why doesn't it set it to 5300K as specified in the image's EXIF data?

Attached is image showing the issue:"

- CR2 file imported into Canon DPP correctly with White Balance setting as per EXIF in the image file

- EXIF data showing manual white balance

- LR imports this and sets WB to 4650K

- EXIFTool app extracts the following info from the file (not shown):

White Balance                   : Manual Temperature (Kelvin)

Color Temperature            : 5300

[ds art]

sorry, when i'm not helpfull in this discussion anymore. but i don't put any energy in a discussion when they wouldn't or couldn't understand RAW processing and color management.

[sydneylow]

BKKDon wrote:

Hi,

All products translate differently, for example the same image in these following products have different K values but look exactly the same:

DPP - 5200

C1 - 5766 Tint + 2.1

LR - 5800 Tint +14

So, it really depends on the RAW processor you are using.

my image that is 5200 in DPP is 4600 in LR.

Can you share the cr2 that does this?

Or post a screenshot of the image in the 3 app windows?

[Todd Shaner]

sydneylow wrote:

my image that is 5200 in DPP is 4600 in LR.

It would be helpful if you can post a CR2 file that shows LR 'As Shot' WB of 4600 with the in-camera Daylight WB setting to Dropbox or other file sharing site? It can be any CR2 file, but preferably one shot in full sun daylight.

[sydneylow]

trshaner wrote:

It would be helpful if you can post a CR2 file that shows LR 'As Shot' WB of 4600 with the in-camera Daylight WB setting to Dropbox or other file sharing site? It can be any CR2 file, but preferably one shot in full sun daylight.

Sure. Link: Dropbox - A53I1807.CR2​

Color temp 5200 in EXIF. Renders at 4350 +8

[Todd Shaner]

You have your White Balance set for Auto and not Daylight, so the 'As Shot' reading in LR will not be Daylight 5200.

What do you have the camera mode dial set to?

Forgot to add that this Daylight shot image WB is 5700 +9 using the LR WB Eyedropper on the neutral patches of the CC. That is perfectly normal an nowhere near the 4600 value. I think you have a camera mode setting issue.

[sydneylow]

Sure

trshaner wrote:

You have your White Balance set for Auto and not Daylight, so the 'As Shot' reading in LR will not be Daylight 5200.

Here's one shot with Daylight:

Dropbox - A53I1804_D.CR2

Renders as 4600, +5 in LR upon import.

That's pretty far off from Daylight 5200 isn't it.

[sydneylow]

trshaner wrote:

You have your White Balance set for Auto and not Daylight, so the 'As Shot' reading in LR will not be Daylight 5200.

Here's the image shot with Daylight in camera, and rendered by LR as:

As Shot (top) and Daylight (bottom).

As Shot is 4600K, +5

Daylight is 5500K, +10

The EXIF value in the image for Color Temperature is 5200K

[BKKDon]

sydneylow wrote:

trshaner wrote:

You have your White Balance set for Auto and not Daylight, so the 'As Shot' reading in LR will not be Daylight 5200.

Here's the image shot with Daylight in camera, and rendered by LR as:

As Shot (top) and Daylight (bottom).

As has been mentioned previously Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw interpret the camera's WB kelvin temperature into temperature & tint settings that are intended to produce the same (nearly) color balance. The Adobe interpretation will rarely duplicate (numerically) that of the WB temperature set by the camera.

Have you tried shooting in RAW+JPG then comparing the JPG produced by the camera with a RAW imported into Lightroom using the "As Shot" WB to see what the comparison is?

[sydneylow]

BKKDon wrote:

As has been mentioned previously Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw interpret the camera's WB kelvin temperature into temperature & tint settings that are intended to produce the same (nearly) color balance. The Adobe interpretation will rarely duplicate (numerically) that of the WB temperature set by the camera.

Thanks, am aware of the points you're making. @trshaner and I are doing some testing.

But why do you think Adobe made the "As Shot" and "Daylight" rendering on the same file shot with "Daylight in Camera" so different?

I'm still bothered by the meaning of "As Shot" - no definition anywhere except for 1 sentence in the online LR manual.

[BKKDon]

sydneylow wrote:

But why do you think Adobe made the "As Shot" and "Daylight" rendering on the same file shot with "Daylight in Camera" so different?

I'm still bothered by the meaning of "As Shot" - no definition anywhere except for 1 sentence in the online LR manual.

If you have a look at the 4 images below, from a Canon 5D Mark III, you can see the top left is a in camera processed JPG, on the top right is the DPP with 5200K WB setting, bottom left is the Lightroom (v6.7) with a setting of 5200K/+5 (As Shot) whereas the 'normal' Daylight setting is 5200K/+10 and bottom right is the Capture One 5025K/-2.9 again (as Shot):

Not sure what is happening in your case, but this is the behaviour I expect from my Mk III and 5DsR with specific WB selection in LR a little warm and with C1 a little saturated, that is why I use as shot on import.

[sydneylow]

Yep. DPP reads the EXIF fine and renders with the in camera colour temp. See the first post's image.

My current view is that it's a LR bug if the 1DX2 is the only model that has such a differing WB temp value.

[BKKDon]

sydneylow wrote:

Yep. DPP reads the EXIF fine and renders with the in camera colour temp. See the first post's image.

My current view is that it's a LR bug if the 1DX2 is the only model that has such a differing WB temp value.

I think it is a general problem with different cameras as the 5DsR has the following settings on import at 5200K setting:

DPP shows at 5200K

LR6 shows at 5150/+1 which is also the Daylight setting for the 5DsR

C1P shows at 4800/-0.8 which is also the Daylight setting for the 5DsR

And the images are fairly similar to the camera processed JPG.

Note that LR & C1P totally screw up the "Auto" settings. (LR is 7000/+14 and C1P 5495/+2.5) Totally much too warm.

[sydneylow]

Seriously. It can't be that hard.

The EXIF has the Color Temp and Profile used.

LR just has to set it to that value and stop

trying to be too tricky in it's translation.

LR can be tricky in the Auto setting but

As Shot should be kept simple and logical.

[FSt0p]

"As Shot" IS simple and logical.

Kelvin temperature is used just for reference and is not really used during conversion.

WB is just a set of multipliers for different color channels - R,G1,G2,B.

This multipliers are taken from shot's metadata and is put there by camera.

For "As Shot" they are used "as is" and not changed. That's all.

They are the same for all converters.

The problem is that there is no defined standard way to translate those multipliers to Kelvin Temperature.

All converter vendors are using slightly different formulas to transform from multipliers to Kelvin Temp and from Kelvin Temp to multipliers.

That's why they all show slightly different color temperature.

The actual multipliers used for "As Shot" are identical!

Trying to match color temperature between different converters by using color temperature in Kelvin is just a wrong approach.

[sydneylow]

Why do you think LR renders a file tagged Daylight and the same file Manual WB both set at 5200K differently with As Shot?

[FSt0p]

sydneylow написал(а):

Why do you think LR renders a file tagged Daylight and the same file Manual WB both set at 5200K differently with As Shot?

Because "Daylight" is not 5200K in Lightroom world.

Set image to "Daylight" in LR, look for Temp and Tint, then switch to "Manual" and enter same values - image will stay the same.

"Daylight" set in camera and "Daylight" in Lightroom is NOT the same.

[sydneylow]

cppasm wrote:

Set image to "Daylight" in LR, look for Temp and Tint, then switch to "Manual" and enter same values - image will stay the same.

Not sure what you mean by Manual. Do you mean Custom?

[Todd Shaner · Accepted solution]

sydneylow wrote:

trshaner wrote:

You have your White Balance set for Auto and not Daylight, so the 'As Shot' reading in LR will not be Daylight 5200.

Here's the image shot with Daylight in camera, and rendered by LR as:

As Shot (top) and Daylight (bottom).

As Shot is 4600K, +5

Daylight is 5500K, +10

The EXIF value in the image for Color Temperature is 5200K

CORRECTION: I checked the EXIF data in that file and it's telling me your camera is set to White Balance Auto. How are you checking the EXIF data? Under EXIF

I was referring to the first file posted. The 2nd file A5311804_D.CR2 does show as Daylight:

But you have a WB Shift applied:

WB Shift AB	: -6
WB Shift GM	: 1

Please try the following:

1) In the camera menu go to WB SHIFT/BK, click on 'Clear All,' and then on Set OK.

2) Set  the camera mode dial to Av, Tv, or Pv mode.

3) Set the WB to 'Daylight' using the camera top LCD display and dial as below.

4) Shoot another CR2 file and post to Dropbox.

[sydneylow]

Done: It's here Dropbox - A53I1812_D.CR2

I don't know how the WB shift got set, reseting it has got LR to render it at 5300 for Daylight.

Thanks for the trouble shooting. Now going back to my catalog to see when the shift came in!

[Todd Shaner]

You're 'As Shot' WB reading (5300) is now very close to the camera's Daylight 5200K WB setting. So much for the naysayers!

You may have adjusted the WB Shift at some point in an attempt to make the camera setting and LR's As Shot WB readings match. That's why I rarely use any of those settings when shooting raw format files–It simply isn't necessary and can cause confusion.

Your previous 'As Shot' with WB Shift setting was off by 900 (5300 - 4600 = 900), which should be very noticeable (blue-cast). I would assume you corrected the WB in any previous image files shot with the WB Shift settings. Just keep in mind that normal Daylight can vary by time of day and if there are clouds: Understanding White Balance  How much you want to correct for these WB differences depends on your preference, but obviously you wouldn't adjust a sunset (3000-4000K) picture for 5200K WB.

[sydneylow]

Thanks for persevering with my troubleshooting.

I knew something wasn't right.

Just couldn't put my finger on it.

I need to get the WB right in camera too so I can file the jpegs asap.

The raw files for more post work were so different in LR.

[TheDigitalDog]

sydneylow wrote:

I need to get the WB right in camera too so I can file the jpegs asap.

The raw files for more post work were so different in LR.

There is no right number! There is a right color appearance!

[b2martin_a]

The "As Shot" white balance is what the camera saved for the white balance value.  The actual numbers used by RAW processing software for the "As Shot" value is a function of the RAW processing software and camera profile used by the software.  I shoot using a Nikon camera and have compared a lot of images processed by Nikon software and Adobe software where I used the Camera matching profile with the Adobe software.  The "As Shot" white balance used in the Adobe software did not match what the Nikon software used, but color in the Nikon processed image and the Adobe processed image from the same RAW file match. 

When I compare camera profiles I process about 50 RAW files with both Nikon and Adobe software using the camera matching profile with the Adobe software and the "As Shot" white balance in both.  I name the images so when I put them in the same file the Nikon and Adobe processed images from the same RAW file are next to each other.  I turn off lens correction in both so no corrections are applied for the lens.  I compare them by running a slide show.  When the slide show switches from the Nikon processed image to the Adobe processed image it's difficult to see any changes.  This shows that the "As Shot" values used by Adobe is what's required to get the same colors in the image.

I have also generated custom camera profiles for Adobe software using X-Rite Passport software.  When white balance is set to "As Shot" in the Adobe software and I change the camera profile from one of the Adobe profiles to the Passport profile the "As Shot" values will change is some cases.  This shows that the "As Shot" white balance is a function of the camera profile.

I suggest you process a RAW file using both Canon and Adobe software and use the Camera Matching profile with the Adobe software and set White Balance to the Kelvin value used by the Canon software.  Compare the two images to see if they match.  Then do the same with Adobe software using the "As Shot" values for white balance.  I think you will get a much closer match when the Adobe software is set to "As Shot" for white balance. 

I assume your goal is to get matching colors in the Canon and Adobe processed images.

[sydneylow]

No, my goal isn't matching.

I'm after a specific color temp WB for a specific venue at a specific time of day.

I want a workflow to process the raw files that minimizes the need to use presets but it looks like I won't be able to.

[TheDigitalDog]

sydneylow wrote:

No, my goal isn't matching.

I'm after a specific color temp WB for a specific venue at a specific time of day.

I want a workflow to process the raw files that minimizes the need to use presets but it looks like I won't be able to.

I still unsure of your goal after explaining that the numbers represent a range of possible colors and that every product treats them differently. So with that fact in mind, what is your goal? Your Numbers May Vary.