P: Detail Panel adjustments preview differently at 200% between Momentary and Panel Switch

[TechnicalCreative]

Hello Adobe…

One of my go to workflows in LRC is broken.  It was broken in 12.4 and still appears to be broken in 13.1 as I updated today.

To get some dramatic skies on landscapes, I usually go the Dehaze adjustment and crank it up a bit.  This typically adds a bit of grain noise in to nice smooth blue skys. One way to combat that was to use the masking tool, and use a linier, sky, or paintbrush to mask over the sky and cloud areas, then in that mask turn up the “Noise” setting which appeared to be a noise reduction setting for the mask controls.  This used to work great and punched up some drama in the sky with Dehaze, then Mask + noise reduction turned the sky back into a smooth blue sky without grain noise.

Now something as changed and is behaving illogically in LRC

Here is my default develop windows with base processing cranking up the Dehaze setting.  Please note the “Details” setting on the base process, all the slider are set to 0.

Here is the masked area I want to apply mask noise reduction on

This is the masked results, it’s a very minor visible improvement, not as good as it used to be, and my masking layer noise reduction is set way too high not to see a smoother image.  See the results circled here in green.  The left circle is no layer mask NR, the right circle is inside the layer mask with NR

If I use the Eye icon (red circle) and toggle off the Details section, the marked areas with NR get many times better results from NR, here almost too much.  In the Right circle, nice and smooth.  In the left top circle, also part of the mask with NR, nice and smooth, the bottom center circle not part of the Mask you can see the original noisy base processing from the Dehaze.

Please note the “Details” setting on the base process, all the sliders are set to 0.

If I Option+Left Click on the on/off toggle (red circle) for the Details in the base processing, I expected to get the same smooth results as above, but it does nothing, the masking with NR are still not as good as when the Details section is momentary toggled off using the Eye button.

What the heck is going on?  Can the these noisy details still be seen in the uploaded images to this fourm?

I have tried this with both graphics card acceleration on/off and got the same results.

Here is my computer configuration:

Model Name:                         MacBook Pro

Model Identifier:                     MacBookPro16,2

Processor Name:                   Quad-Core Intel Core i7

Processor Speed:                  2.3 GHz

Number of Processors:          1

Total Number of Cores:          4

L2 Cache (per Core):              512 KB

L3 Cache:                             8 MB

Hyper-Threading Technology: Enabled

Memory:                               32 GB

System Firmware Version:      2020.41.1.0.0 (iBridge: 21.16.1069.0.0,0)

OS Loader Version:       577.140.2~15

[TechnicalCreative]

@Rikk Flohr: Inactive  what's the point of having a bug reporting forum if you just move it to discussion forum. This is a bug.  Just a bug.   At least Adobe up an say will not fix. Quit moving my bug report to discussion.  I read your FAQ. I don't care that it's more visable in discussion. It a bug adobe should fix it. 

[TechnicalCreative]

^^^^^

Sorry this should be at @Rikk Flohr: Photography 

Two flohr ?  Who knew?

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

One is from my days before working full-time at Adobe. 

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Many Community Experts have lobbied for Adobe to turn off the ability of a customer to report bugs.  We strongly considered it as most of what comes into bugs are not actually bugs (about 9 out of 10). For now, we leave the ability even though most bugs posted are not bugs - most are not even close. We want customers to feel empowered to report a bug - when necessary so the functionality remains.

Bugs is a place for bonafide, verified, and codified bugs.   This means the bugs are actually bugs and not expected behavior,  have been verified as repeatable by myself or Community Experts, and have a corresponding ticket in our bug tracking system. The bug forum is a place for customers to review a list of qualified bugs and get actionable, usable information. Unconfirmed bugs lessen the veracity of that mission. 

Specifically, regarding your report:
Based on the information provided, I cannot reproduce it.  No Community Expert has chimed in to verify they can reproduce the behavior.  Perhaps there is a flaw in our understanding of your reproduction instructions. That is possible. Perhaps posting a simplified 1,2,3, process for repeating it would help. Or, it could be an installation-specific issue that others don't encounter.

Until something changes, this post will remain in discussions as it is your best shot at getting the information necessary to promote it to legitimate bug status.   

[Keith Reeder]

"what's the point of having a bug reporting forum if you just move it to discussion forum."

Simple answer: you/we (ie, the users) don't get to decide what is and isn't a bug.

Adobe's house, Adobe's rules.

[Bob Somrak]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography 

I could duplicate this but I think it is because the OP has the Color noise in Global set to zero so I do not think it is a bug..  There is a brush spot with 100% local noise in the middle of the screen recording and the zoom is 200%. Clicking the eyeball on the global with settings zeroed changes the brush spot.  The change happens not only in the spot but the whole photo.  See screen recording.

[Bob Somrak]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography 

Update:  I could finally edit my post

[Bob Somrak]

@TechnicalCreative 

This is not a bug.  You have changed the DEFAULT setting for Color Noise in the Global Detail Panel.  This is why Adobe has rules for what goes into the Bug Forum.  

[TechnicalCreative]

@Bob Somrak -

Thanks for the video capture that is a neat idea to show my perceived issue

I still see it as a BUG, however considering perspective for the default settings of base Details_NoiseReduction_Color defaults... this is one BUG I might be able to work around...

However, why does using the Eye / Bypass Off on the base "Detail" give one visible result that is different from using the On/Off option on the base "Detail"?

My idea was to set both luma / chroma noise reduction to 0.. then show the results were different in each mode, Detail Eye Bypassed, Detail Off. I can only now assume that regardless if the luma and chroma are both set to 0... the Detail section is still applying some level of NR unless the Detail Off switch is selected.

Why the other masking tool's Noise Reduction better when the Detail section is in Eye Bypass/Off mode, regardless of the settings in Detail.

The LR application is "assuming" if you use the Eye Bypass for the Details section, the user would prefer to see bypass preview with the base Detail section ON with the default NR settings?

That assumption seams incorrect to me
Lightroom: “Here is a bypass Off preview with default settings turned back On and applied."

[Bob Somrak]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography 

As per the OPs last post, there does appear to be a bug/issue when using the Global Detail panel Eyeball vs the ON/OFF switch.  The attached video shows a Local Brush with the Noise set at 100.  The Global Detail Panel is at default except the Color Noise is at 0.  The only other edit is the Global Dehaze is at 100.  These are the OPs settings from the original post.  You will notice in the attached video I clicked the EyeBall 3 times and the Local Brush area AND Global area changed .  I then clicked the ON/OFF 3 times and there was no change or insignificant.  Shouldn't the EyeBall and ON/OFF switch show the same thing.  It seems the ON/OFF is not working in the Global Detail Panel.  The view is at 200% zoom.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

The Eyeball and the Panel Switch produce identical behavior when I attempt the same test here. They both behave as your 'eye ball' behavior from the video.

I do not see the same behavior in my test. image as shown in your video when using a panel switch [Alt+Click].  

[Bob Somrak]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography 

The affect is ONLY noticable in the Local Mask brush area I show in my video.  Notice the area around the brush indicator.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

That is where I am looking. 

[Bob Somrak]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography 

Forget about all the gyrations of the OPs example.  This is easier.  Select a NOISY photo.  Reset all develop settings.  Change the default Color Noise from 25 to 26.  This makes an unnoticable change to the photo.  Use the Eyeball and there is no change.  Use the Switch and there is a change.  The following video shows 3 eyeball changes and 3 switch changes.  There is obviously a difference between the eyeball and switch.

BTW, I NEVER use the switch so this has not come up for me before

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

I see an image change regardless of Momentary (Eyeball) or Panel Switch (Alt/Opt) + Eyeball.  Now, in this example, the change is different in how it acts on Color Noise. I do see a change in the image regardless of the toggle method. 

I am going to have an engineer look at this for confirmation. 

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

A Ticket has been opened for investigation. 

[Bob Somrak]

Thanks @Rikk Flohr: Photography 

[TechnicalCreative]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography 
@Bob Somrak 

Thank you for looking at this!
Comming from an audio engineering background with DSP processing, Preview / On\Off / Bypass buttons are important tools and my perception on how they should work might be diffrent that the Lightroom software engineers are thinking.

I'll be stuck in a corner... "gyrating"...  In full confusion that Adobe has invented a better On\Off switch and I must relearn 35 years of signal processing engineering and user interface design.  🙂

Thank you again and hopfully this makes it into a tune up fix for some future version.  Knowing what I am seeing now, I can work around this a bit.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Note: 

This has been moved from Bugs back to Discussions due to the expected behavior.  Please see engineering's comments:

"The eye icon and panel switch work in different ways.
The Eye icon compares the current setting (which has been modified from the state it was by default), vs the imported settings (in raw defaults).

In the case of this example, the default slider values were :
NR - Luminance 0, but Colour noise was 25.
Sharpening - 40

Now, if I change the default value of color noise from 25 to 0, and use the eye icon, we will see the noise appear on the image. However, if the switch is used, there won't be any change in the image (except for sharpening. Changing Sharpening is set to 0 will ensure there's no difference at all).

Hence, this is not a bug and is the intended behavior, and this is the reason we have both the eye icon and the switch. "