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P: Perform Spot Heal / Removal before Sky Selection - not after for best results

Explorer ,
Oct 31, 2021 Oct 31, 2021

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Problem: When I use the spot removal tool in Lightroom Classic version 11 to remove a leaf against open sky after Sky Select was used, Lightroom fails to remove the spot completely. It leaves a light gray version of the leaf behind. See samples below. I checked and opacity is set to 100%.

 

The problem does not occur if I do spot removal before Sky Select is used.

 

This is on Windows 10, working on a Fuji GFX 50R RAF.

 

Before spot removal.jpgAfter spot removal.jpg

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Adobe Employee , Oct 31, 2021 Oct 31, 2021
This is current as-designed behavior. Expected workflow is to correct spots prior to using the ML Model Select Sky

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Adobe Employee ,
Oct 31, 2021 Oct 31, 2021

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This is current as-designed behavior.

Expected workflow is to correct spots prior to using the ML Model Select Sky

Rikk Flohr - Customer Advocacy: Adobe Photography Products

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Explorer ,
Oct 31, 2021 Oct 31, 2021

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Thanks for the quick response Rikk.

 

At least we know now. I'm curious, is this documented anywhere?

 

Also, why would it be designed this way? From a user perspective, there's no reason to expect this behaviour. One of the great strengths of Lightroom to date has been that you don't have to fuss about the order in which most things are done.

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Adobe Employee ,
Oct 31, 2021 Oct 31, 2021

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AFAIK it is not documented publically (Until this post!)

 

The rational is that if you spot heal after a Sky AI, you would need to recalculate the Sky selection every time you placed a spot heal corrections. I've seen a lot of images with dozens/hundreds and that is a lot of recomputing. 

 

Future enhancements may provide a way around this. 

Rikk Flohr - Customer Advocacy: Adobe Photography Products

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Explorer ,
Oct 31, 2021 Oct 31, 2021

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Ah, I see. I expect I'm not the only person who will discover this. 😉 Hopefully a workable solution that saves us having to worry about the order of edits will come soon. In the meantime, at least we know how to manage.

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Adobe Employee ,
Oct 31, 2021 Oct 31, 2021

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I've made this the Primary (P:) thread on the subject and modified the subject line for visibility.

Rikk Flohr - Customer Advocacy: Adobe Photography Products

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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Can I request that you edit the subject line to include the phrase "Spot Removal" so that it shows up in forum search results for the tool in question? I searched that term before posting and this thread did not turn up.

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Adobe Employee ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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It shows up as the 7th item down for me: https://community.adobe.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?filter=location&q=spot%20removal&locati... 

Rikk Flohr - Customer Advocacy: Adobe Photography Products

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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@Rikk Flohr: Photography wrote:

This is current as-designed behavior.

Expected workflow is to correct spots prior to using the ML Model Select Sky



I sincerely hope this gets reconsidered! If you apply a mask on the sky, and that mask darkens it or increases the contrast or applies a bit of dehaze, then it is not uncommon that you start to see dust spots that you didn't see before. If you then cannot correct those spots unless you delete your masks, then that would be very poor design indeed...

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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Or.... you can simply add those spots into the mask. When I first encountered this, it seemed like a big problem to me too. But after realizing it was just the case of a Spot Removal spanning both a masked and unmasked part of the image, and that the solution was as simple as making sure the mask spanned the entire spot, I'm totally on board with this UI. It's only poor design in the sense that it may be poorly presented and communicated here.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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This does not seem like an accurate statement of the indended (or necessary) workflow.

 

What happened here is that Mask was used to locally change some edit settings, then a Spot Removal was selected spanning both the masked and unmasked portions of the image. One solution is to correct spots first, as you suggest. The other solution is simply to add the entire area of the Spot Removal to the mask.

 

In either event, the key here is to understand that the problem is NOT with the order of operations. The problem here is that the Spot Removal has been performed in a location that spans areas both included and excluded from a mask. I expect the same issue would occur with whe spot removing at the edge of ANY hard edged mask, not simply sky masks.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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Hi,

I've been using masks in the new LRC and find it operates a bit odd with cloning.  More likely, I'm not understanding 🙂

So, I have an image where the sky is a overexposed compared to my subject.  There are also other objects in frame - the edge of a crane, building etc.

I want to use the "select sky" mask to bring the sky down a bit.  Then I'm using the clone tool to get rid of the bits and pieces at the edge.

When I use the clone tool it leaves a ghost image.  If I switch the sky mask off, it operates as expected.

It feels like I'm probably doing something wrong with masks - and then trying to clone.  As if in PS where I'm sampling wrong layers etc.

 

Thanks for any help.

Screenshot 2021-11-05 135959.jpg

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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See the article at the link below.

https://jkost.com/blog/

 

Regards, Denis: iMac mid-2015, 5K 27”, GPU 2GB, Ram 24GB, HDD 3TB, macOS 11.6.1, LrC 11.0.1, Lr 5, Ps 23.0,; Camera OM-D E-M1.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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@DdeGannes 

Instead of us digging through that big blog, exactly what and where in that link pertains to this issue?   It looks like a bug to me.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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I've looked at the video on masking before.  I don't think it addresses clone tool. 
I'll have a look at the same operation later in PS - maybe that gives a clue. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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This is a known issue. The workaround, at present, is to apply the clone/heal tool 'before' the mask.

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Guru ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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There is an button to re-analyse and update a previous auto-selection of Sky, or else Subject, in case that helps.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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Thats sounds interesting thanks.  I haven't seen that yet - I've seen this feature in other programs where you can ask the app to look again at edges by etc.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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@richardplondon 

There is no button to re-analyze a Subject or sky Mask although there should be.  The Update button is only shows up when you copy/paste, sync etc a Subject or Sky Mask.  

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Guru ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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I stand corrected, this button to Update the auto mask is only offered in that circumstance.

 

But after in effect changing the image content one can click to Add a second Sky auto 'layer' to the same containing Mask. This kicks off a fresh Detect Sky operation based on the currently showing image content (including any recently done clone or heal). Then the first, now invalidated sky-mask 'layer' can be deleted.

 

It's a clunky workaround, no question: far better to Update directly, but I am not seeing any way to do that.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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...But after in effect changing the image content one can click to Add a second Sky auto 'layer' to the same containing Mask. This kicks off a fresh Detect Sky operation based on the currently showing image content (including any recently done clone or heal). Then the first, now invalidated sky-mask 'layer' can be deleted...


By @richardplondon

Thanks, Richard. Thats a good workaround in case one (such as myself) forgets to do the spot healing until after finished editng. 🙂

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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That's a work around with a lot of extra steps.

 

Alternately, you can just go into the existing sky mask and add a brush stroke to it that covers the area of the Spot Removal. (A thing I learned this morning when my issue got merged with this thread and I learned the underlying problem - which is that the Spot Removal worked perfectly, but the area of the object is outside the sky mask. Adding a brush stroke was a super quick fix.)

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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Both the clone tool and the mask tool are overlays. They lay an edit over the image, as if you are working with layers. Apparently the clone tool ignores the mask overlay, possibly because its layer lies below the mask layer. So it always clones from the original image, even if you clone after you applied the mask. If you apply the clone tool first, then the mask tool will overlay the cloned image and the effect is what you would expect. I assume that Adobe can change this in an update, so the order of things is no longer an issue.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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It's a known issue (i.e. a known bug) reported at least twice, confirmed as a bug, and the 'official' workaround is as I described in my previous post.

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 05, 2021 Nov 05, 2021

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@Ian Lyons wrote:

It's a known issue (i.e. a known bug) reported at least twice, confirmed as a bug, and the 'official' workaround is as I described in my previous post.


 

I know and I didn't suggest otherwise. I just speculated how this bug came to be. Bug aren't always code errors. They can also be caused by a faulty design of a feature.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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