P: Decouple Tint & Temperature Sliders in Auto Sync/Sync/Copy & Paste workflows

[owen-b]

Lightroom Classic 12.4 / Camera Raw 15.4

Just imported a dozen Fuji X-T5 raw files. White balance and tint value is slightly different for all of them as they were shot in 'Auto WB' on the camera.

Wanted to adjust the tint value on all images but retain their existing WB value.

Selected all, made sure Auto Sync was on in Develop mode, and moved the Tint value to 5. 

Expected result: all selected images should now have a Tint value of 5, while retaining their original WB value.

Actual result: the WB and the Tint value for the main image was applied to all selected images, even though I had not adjusted WB at all.

Did an Undo, went through all images to confirm they all had different WB and tint values. Selected a different image. Did a Select All, Auto Sync on. This time I set the WB value for my main image.

Expected result: all selected images should now have the same WB as the main image, but their Tint values should be unchanged.

Actual result: again, the adjusted WB and unadjusted Tint values for this image were applied to ALL selected images.

Have recreated the issue with every shoot currently waiting to be edited. This is a relatively new issue as I'm used to being able to adjust these values independently of each other across Auto Synced images.

[TomReesFramer]

I'm once again experiencing a new version of the same bug in LR classic. When auto syncing White Balance across multiple images, both the Temp and Tint are being synced, even when only the temp is being adjusted in the source image.

This behaviour is intermittantly experienced with multplie develop settings. HSL & Crop exhibit the same behaviour intermittantly and are already well documented bugs.

Why aren't these issues being investigated and fixed? Lightroom classic seems to have more and more bugs with every release.

This particular bug is serious issue for wedding photographers and photographers working with large volume adjustments.

12.4
Mac OS

[GoldingD]

Hmm, try this

Select any photo, select to copy the develop settings, in the dialog box that appears, deselect all the boxes, (perhaps tint was involved) close that. Now try your normal auto sync method.

Not a fix.

[Suzanne Mathia]

Could you create a camera DNG profile creator from Adobe (free) and create a new camera profile where the only change you make is drag the tint to the desired level. https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/digital-negative.html

[owen-b]

Thanks for suggesting a possible workaround  but I'm a wedding and event photographer dealing with hundreds and hundreds of images per shoot shot in all kinds of different lighting across the day, and don't have the time or inclination to create extra work for myself like this every time I want to tweak the tint or white balance for a few images in a selection, which I need to do dozens of times per shoot.

Would  rather understand if this is happening to anyone else and therefore needs to be fixed by Adobe, or if it's something ive somehow introduced myself or is particular to me somehow.

[JohanElzenga]

Yes, I see this too. This is definitely a bug, so I'll move this thread to the Bugs section.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Open bug to investigate. 

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Note:

The team has advised this is currently designed behavior. I've moved this post into the feature requests forum for potential future enhancement. 
Auto Sync/Sync/Copy&Paste currently doesn't support decoupling Temp/Tint sliders. 

[owen-b]

Oh wow, seriously?!

That is a TERRIBLE choice. There are many examples I can cite where I need to bulk adjust one of these but not the other. What practical reasons does Adobe have to believe that they should be linked? 

[JohanElzenga]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography I'm pretty sure that this worked correctly before, so how can this faulty behavior suddenly be 'as designed'?

[owen-b]

@JohanElzenga agreed, it doesn't come up every shoot that I need to adjust tint and WB across multiple images independently of each other, but enough that when I tried to do it on a recent shoot I instantly noticed they're now locked together and it was an issue. So this has got to be a relatively new change and I can't understand the reasoning. Light just doesn't work like that universally, WB and tint are not always in a direct relationship with each other.

[GoldingD]

"Note: The team has advised this is currently as-designed behavior. I've moved this post into the feature requests forum for possible future enhancement. "

Sounds like the team misunderstood, OP is not selecting a WB preset, such as Daylight as opposed to As Shot, OP is adjusting only the Tint Slider.  If Auto Sync, or Sync moves both, then that is lousy as designed operation.

So, bad design decision, I call this a Bug.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

From @GoldingD "Sounds like the team misunderstood"

That would be incorrect. 

[owen-b]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography "That would be incorrect"

Understood, but that just makes the design choice to lock WB and tint together for Auto-Sync adjustments even more confounding a decision. I genuinely would ask them how they think people use LRC, and why they think WB and tint always work relative to each othr. They don't, there are many very good reasons why a working professional would want to mass-adjust tint or WB without the other value being adjusted to match the source.

Genuinely bemused.  

[JohanElzenga]

Just as a side note: The White Balance is set by the combination of the Temperature and Tint sliders. There is no WB slider.

[owen-b]

@JohanElzenga good point well made, I've been using 'WB' to describe the temperature slider. My bad. 

[richardplondon]

I haven't the ability to check just now - could the Quick Develop panel be a method to consider? (in Library)

With AutoSync.

A nudge of (say) Tint  could produce the same visual change on several highlighted images: NB unlike working in Develop, this operates relatively onto images' current values for the parameter in question so a slight change of workflow habits is required.

Other ideas for bulk adjustment, assuming OP is open to other means and is not dead set on altering the WB in particular: 

• HSL panel (e.g. hue shift)
• Calibration panel manual colour response sliders
• Tone Curve panel
• Grading panel

OR sticking with WB, syncing across images a local adjustment mask - or applying that via a Preset - which affects the entire image area and adds a certain WB tweak of Tint alone.

[TomReesFramer]

Not sure what this has to do with Autosync but it wouldn't work anyway. Tint and Temp are not separated in the sync dialogue box. One of the reasons I use autosync is that it allows for individual slider adjustments across multiple images, unlike manual sync, which only allows for syncing of whole developer pane sections.

[johnrellis]

"I'm pretty sure that this worked correctly before"

I just tested LR 10.4, and it behaves the same as LR 12.4.

I've had a longstanding feature request to enhance the Copy Settings plugin to allow Temp and Tint to be copied separately. Not sure when I'll be able to get to it.

[JohanElzenga]

Maybe it was longer ago than I thought. Before the xmp presets were introduced in version 7.3, you could create a preset for white balance and then simply remove either the temperature of the tint setting using a text editor. Since the presets changed to xmp that no longer works. So perhaps this auto sync behavior changed at that time too.

[TomReesFramer]

If this is designed behaviour then it has been design in the latest version as these sliders were previously decoupled. Why would the Temp and Tint be coupled if the HSL sliders are not when auotsyncing? I've been using Lightroom for 10 years and adjusting Temp only using Autosync the entire time. It's part of the reason I use auto sync over the dialogue box regular sync option.

Also....why would you suddenly have so many people posting about this issue if it was intended behaviour prior to recent times?

[johnrellis]

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"If this is designed behaviour then it has been designed in the latest version as these sliders were previously decoupled."

I did more thorough testing, and the behavior of Auto Sync of Tint changed two years ago in LR 11.0.

In all versions going back to LR 6.14, when the source and target photos have WB: As Shot, Auto Sync of a change to Tint copies Temp as well.

Prior to LR 11.0, when the source and target photos have WB: Custom, Auto Sync of a change to Tint copied Tint only, not Temp.  But starting with LR 11.0, it copied Temp also.

Here's a summary of whether Auto Sync copies Temp as well as Tint, by version:

Note that the bezel that appears always says "Tint updated", regardless of whether Temp is also updated:

This is misleadingly inconsistent with the actual behavior (i.e. a bug).

I can't think of a good design reason why Auto Sync would ever copy Temp when Tint is changed or why in older versions there's a difference in behavior between WB: As Shot and WB: Custom.

Typically, when the developers pronounce a behavior "as designed", they won't explain the design rationale and they won't change their minds. It may in fact have been an explicit design with some rationale, or it may be that, as it appears all too often in recent years, the behavior wasn't explicitly intended, and "as designed" is an excuse to avoid changing complicated code that is no longer well-understood by the current developers (and an easy way to meet management incentives to reduce the number of formal bugs).

[owen-b]

@johnrellis This is excellent researhc, John. Frankly I'm astonished it's been this way for so long and I haven't noticed. I suppoose they would say that's evidence it's fine the way it is. But frankly it's absolutely incomprehensible why these two sliders are locked together like this. It suggests to me that Adobe don't care how professionals use their software. 

[DdeGannes]

@johnrellis , this is strange and not what I would expect. I will check on my system when I return home next Thursday as I only have my iPad with me on vacation over the past three months.

Quote "I can't think of a good design reason why Auto Sync would ever copy Temp when Tint is changed or why in older versions there's a difference in behavior between WB: As Shot and WB: Custom." A big ?.?.

[DdeGannes]

My only thought here is "As Shot" is Adobe's setting for it's interpretation of the Camera WB settings and is image specific. WB i.e. actual color temperature changes as you capture images.

When you make any change it becomes custom settings to copy and apply, if you copy "As shot" to another image it just retains the "As shot" settings for that image.

"As shot" has been a got-ya since inception.

[johnrellis]

In my tests, I wasn't auto-syncing As Shot.  Here's the exact sequence of steps:

1. Both the source and target photos are set to WB: As Shot.

2. Enable Auto Sync.

3. Change Tint of the source photo, and WB immediately changes to Custom.

4. Both the Tint and Temp from the source photo's Custom settings are copied to the target photo, which changes to Custom.