P: "Save as" dialog, "Embed Color Profile" check button cannot be checked with untagged doc

[hyungsongnam]

Runnng Adobe Photoshop 23.3.0 release on macOS Monterey 12.3.1.

"Save as" dialog, "Embed Color Profile" check button cannot be checked on from off.

[BrettN]

Hello @hyungsongnam. I see this behavior when the image I'm saving doesn't have a profile currently associated with it. It would make sense at this point for this option to be off and not able to be turned on since there is no profile set to be saved into the file. Can you double-check to see if the file you are trying to save has a profile? There are several ways to do this: 

1. In the document tab (at the top of the document window, where it lists the document name, color mode, bit-depth, etc), if you see a "#" next to the bit-depth, then there is no profile associated with it
2. In the bottom left of the document window is a customizable status window (next to the Zoom percentage). You change change this setting to "Document Profile" and if it says "Untagged" there is no profile.

3. Go to Edit > Assign Profile. If "Don't Color Manage This Document" is selected, there is no profile assigned.

If you have no profile, you can use Assign Profile to give it one. Be careful with this setting though as the wrong profile can cause the color to shift. You can use Convert to Profile instead, while it holds similar pitfalls in this situation, it is the safer option. 

[Peter Brosch]

In Photoshop 23.3.0 (Mac OS 12.3.1) lässt sich beim Speichern als psd oder tif das Häkchen zum Einbetten der Farbprofile nicht mehr anwählen. Das Farbprofil kann nicht mehr eingebettet werden.

[J453]

Does your document have a profile embedded? Sounds like you might be hitting this issue: 

 https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-bugs/p-quot-save-as-quot-dialog-quot-embed-color-...

[Peter Brosch]

In version 23.2 you could click the checkbox if the color profile was not embedded. This way, you could assign the profile without having to do that extra beforehand with the "Assign Profile..." command. Now in version 23.3 you have to assign it manually first, then you can embed it when saving. So now two steps are needed instead of one.

[J453]

OK. Sounds like you're hitting the same issue.

[TheDigitalDog]

This makes sense in behavor, maybe not from a UI standpoint. 

If you have an untagged document, it would be a very bad idea to allow embedding of whatever is seen here without first using the Assign Profile command. At this point, this is all RGB mystery meat and the user needs to view the image and toggle the 'correct' (visually) profile to Assign it, then of course the check box is accessible. 

The UI should probably gray out the option with untagged documents using Save As.... instead of showing the check box and having the user try, unsuccessfully, to click on it. Or pop an error (can't embed profile in untagged documents), or something like that. 

So at the very least, the UI could aid the user and then slap his/her hand for having untagged data <g>. 

[BrettN]

@TheDigitalDog We found that a recent, unrelated change resulted in this behavior and we are working toward addressing it. Previously, the Working Profile from Color Settings would get assigned to untagged documents when checking this option. This makes sense since that same profile was being used to interpret the colors of the document while viewing it before going to save, so the user already knows what the end result will look like. 

[TheDigitalDog]

Previously, the Working Profile from Color Settings would get assigned to untagged documents when checking this option. This makes sense since that same profile was being used to interpret the colors of the document while viewing it before going to save, so the user already knows what the end result will look like. 

Yes, untagged data is 'assumed' to be the color space in the color settings and that's a good start. Some color space has to be used. But unless the user goes into the color settings, that may not be discoverable. Until the user actually assigns a profile, I would be hard-pressed to recommend tagging the document as such on saving alone. It might be the right answer but it's just as likely the wrong answer. So now you have what was an untagged document, tagged simply by saving it if/when the user simply checks that box. But did the user mean to do so, did the user actually look and Assign the profile (clearly no)? This might not be the best default. 

Pros: Untagged data is now tagged when saving (based on something found elsewhere in the color settings). 

Cons: is this the right tag, did the user click this option knowing what they were doing? 

Forcing the embedding after the Assign Profile command at least confirms the user assigned the profile as they viewed a soft proof while doing so. Now the check box should be on, done. 

Going back to the old behavior is probably much better than what we have now (confusing when trying to click the check box). But it could be better; to tell the user at this time, that he/she should actually assign the profile. Now at Save, the check box is on automatically. 

[BrettN]

Going back to the old behavior is probably much better than what we have now (confusing when trying to click the check box). But it could be better; to tell the user at this time, that he/she should actually assign the profile. Now at Save, the check box is on automatically. 

This is how it used to work. When there is no profile assigned, this option is Off by default. Checking the box does the same thing as going to Assign Profile, choosing Working RGB, and then saving. We are thus giving them a simple check box at time of save rather than going to find an option they may not even know exists or where to find it. The box is On automatically any time there is already a profile attached (whether they just assigned it or was already embedded). 

If the user is saving the file, we have to assume they are happy with the appearance, even if it is an untagged file temporarily using a working profile. Soft-proofing occurred the moment they opened the file and saw it displayed with the working profile in place. If they select to embed at save, they are accepting the current appearance along with the current working profile. 

[TheDigitalDog]

This is how it used to work. When there is no profile assigned, this option is Off by default. Checking the box does the same thing as going to Assign Profile, choosing Working RGB, and then saving.

Yes, and that's fine but since you've got to fix the current issue, I'm suggesting it might be 'better". 

The box is On automatically any time there is already a profile attached (whether they just assigned it or was already embedded). 

That's fine and I agree that's how it should be. However.... 

If the user is saving the file, we have to assume they are happy with the appearance, even if it is an untagged file temporarily using a working profile.

It is that assumption I'm not totally comfortable with. Why didn't they use the Assign profile command in the first place, did they wish for this document to be untagged? We don't know. 

I'm OK with the original behavior (this new one obviously isn't good), but I'm wondering if you can, without big engineering, inform the user "you've got an untagged document, we will embed a profile after you actually specifically select one, not one that's far away in the color settings". Of course, I'm not suggesting this kind of long-winded language. I'm wondering if you can both aid in ceasing untagged documents and informing the user that they probably should take a look at what's currently 'assigned' outside their attention in color settings. If they like what they see, fine. 

[BrettN]

You've hit on one of our core struggles: how do we make Photoshop easy enough for new users but still useful to experienced users? For many new users, they are either unaware of or don't care about color management. For those who are unaware, how do we inform them about a potentially benefitial workflow in such a way that doesn't interfere with what advanced or uninterested users are doing?

No one likes Clippy and having to dismiss warnings gets tiresome.

We do have Color Settings which warn users when they open untagged files, but that is something which has to be turned on. In line with that, we could probably use the same warning when saving an untagged file, but would likely also only do so when such a reminder is enabled. But we are still in a similar situation: if this is off by default, how do we educate customers without being annoying? How do we present them with enough information to make an educated decision about what would be the correct profile to use, but not so much new information that the dialog is confusing and dismissed out of hand? Would a new user understand what it means to know that their file doesn't have a profile? Or would they just click OK without reading, like clicking I Agree on a TOS? 

[TheDigitalDog]

”Education costs money, but then so does ignorance.”-Claus Moser

You can't force users to RTFM. Defaults (like missing profile warnings) are the best you can do. It shouldn't have to be 'turned on' and to be honest, I can't even recall if that's the behavior of PS out of the box or not. 

If you fix the current behavior to match the old, that's great. 

If you can fix the color management in the Print dialog (its soft proof still doesn't work, how long has Dave P been gone?) great. 

If you fix Export As for color management, great. 

More color management progress than that, let's talk after the above is taken care of. 🤩

[BrettN]

The default Color Setting preset is North America General Purpose 2, which has the warning dialogs turned off. The next most commonly used preset is North America Prepress 2, which has the warnings turned on. This is the more color management centric setting.

One of my team's focus areas is Export As and fixing the color management is on our to-do list. I can't speak for the other areas though, but I assume that someone, somewhere is working on those other areas too.

[TheDigitalDog]

The default Color Setting preset is North America General Purpose 2, which has the warning dialogs turned off.

Who thinks that's a good idea? 😢

Too bad dear Bruce Fraser isn't around to comment as I'm sure he did back in the pre-Photoshop 5 days. 

The next most commonly used preset is North America Prepress 2, which has the warnings turned on.

So much for the idea that General Purpose is a  good target or idea, espeically for an out of the box default. Unless the idea is to produce more untagged data. As Bruce called it "RGB mystery meat". 

[TheDigitalDog]

I assume that someone, somewhere is working on those other areas too.

As for the Print dialog not being color managed, I only provided a bug report internally (Bug: PS-42193 ) in January 2020, and as it states: This isn't the first report of this issue. Just the last time before I gave up. 

[orton365]

Unable to tick the the check box in Save As to embed the Adobe 98 Colour Profile.

Image below:

Any ideas what might be happening? I have been working with my images in the same way I always do.

[TheDigitalDog]

That document is untagged, tag it, (Assign Profile command) then you'll be OK. 

This is (kind of) a bug, and Adobe is aware of this behavior and a fix is on the way. 

[orton365]

Thank you!

[Mohit Goyal]

Hi all,

We're happy to announce the release of Photoshop 23.5. This update includes the fix for this issue. To see the list of all fixed issues, click here

To update Photoshop to 23.5, click "Update" in the Creative Cloud desktop app next to Photoshop. More detailed instructions for updating

Let us know if the update resolves the problem for those affected, and share your feedback.

Thanks,

Mohit