P: "Save as" dialog, "Embed Color Profile" check button cannot be checked with untagged doc

Unable to tick the the check box in Save As to embed the Adobe 98 Colour Profile.

Image below:

Any ideas what might be happening? I have been working with my images in the same way I always do.

I assume that someone, somewhere is working on those other areas too.

As for the Print dialog not being color managed, I only provided a bug report internally (Bug: PS-42193 ) in January 2020, and as it states: This isn't the first report of this issue. Just the last time before I gave up. 

The default Color Setting preset is North America General Purpose 2, which has the warning dialogs turned off.

Who thinks that's a good idea? 😢

Too bad dear Bruce Fraser isn't around to comment as I'm sure he did back in the pre-Photoshop 5 days. 

The next most commonly used preset is North America Prepress 2, which has the warnings turned on.

So much for the idea that General Purpose is a  good target or idea, espeically for an out of the box default. Unless the idea is to produce more untagged data. As Bruce called it "RGB mystery meat". 

The default Color Setting preset is North America General Purpose 2, which has the warning dialogs turned off. The next most commonly used preset is North America Prepress 2, which has the warnings turned on. This is the more color management centric setting.

One of my team's focus areas is Export As and fixing the color management is on our to-do list. I can't speak for the other areas though, but I assume that someone, somewhere is working on those other areas too.

”Education costs money, but then so does ignorance.”-Claus Moser

You can't force users to RTFM. Defaults (like missing profile warnings) are the best you can do. It shouldn't have to be 'turned on' and to be honest, I can't even recall if that's the behavior of PS out of the box or not. 

If you fix the current behavior to match the old, that's great. 

If you can fix the color management in the Print dialog (its soft proof still doesn't work, how long has Dave P been gone?) great. 

If you fix Export As for color management, great. 

More color management progress than that, let's talk after the above is taken care of. 🤩

You've hit on one of our core struggles: how do we make Photoshop easy enough for new users but still useful to experienced users? For many new users, they are either unaware of or don't care about color management. For those who are unaware, how do we inform them about a potentially benefitial workflow in such a way that doesn't interfere with what advanced or uninterested users are doing?

No one likes Clippy and having to dismiss warnings gets tiresome.

We do have Color Settings which warn users when they open untagged files, but that is something which has to be turned on. In line with that, we could probably use the same warning when saving an untagged file, but would likely also only do so when such a reminder is enabled. But we are still in a similar situation: if this is off by default, how do we educate customers without being annoying? How do we present them with enough information to make an educated decision about what would be the correct profile to use, but not so much new information that the dialog is confusing and dismissed out of hand? Would a new user understand what it means to know that their file doesn't have a profile? Or would they just click OK without reading, like clicking I Agree on a TOS? 

This is how it used to work. When there is no profile assigned, this option is Off by default. Checking the box does the same thing as going to Assign Profile, choosing Working RGB, and then saving.

Yes, and that's fine but since you've got to fix the current issue, I'm suggesting it might be 'better". 

The box is On automatically any time there is already a profile attached (whether they just assigned it or was already embedded). 

That's fine and I agree that's how it should be. However.... 

If the user is saving the file, we have to assume they are happy with the appearance, even if it is an untagged file temporarily using a working profile.

It is that assumption I'm not totally comfortable with. Why didn't they use the Assign profile command in the first place, did they wish for this document to be untagged? We don't know. 

I'm OK with the original behavior (this new one obviously isn't good), but I'm wondering if you can, without big engineering, inform the user "you've got an untagged document, we will embed a profile after you actually specifically select one, not one that's far away in the color settings". Of course, I'm not suggesting this kind of long-winded language. I'm wondering if you can both aid in ceasing untagged documents and informing the user that they probably should take a look at what's currently 'assigned' outside their attention in color settings. If they like what they see, fine. 

Going back to the old behavior is probably much better than what we have now (confusing when trying to click the check box). But it could be better; to tell the user at this time, that he/she should actually assign the profile. Now at Save, the check box is on automatically. 

This is how it used to work. When there is no profile assigned, this option is Off by default. Checking the box does the same thing as going to Assign Profile, choosing Working RGB, and then saving. We are thus giving them a simple check box at time of save rather than going to find an option they may not even know exists or where to find it. The box is On automatically any time there is already a profile attached (whether they just assigned it or was already embedded). 

If the user is saving the file, we have to assume they are happy with the appearance, even if it is an untagged file temporarily using a working profile. Soft-proofing occurred the moment they opened the file and saw it displayed with the working profile in place. If they select to embed at save, they are accepting the current appearance along with the current working profile. 

Previously, the Working Profile from Color Settings would get assigned to untagged documents when checking this option. This makes sense since that same profile was being used to interpret the colors of the document while viewing it before going to save, so the user already knows what the end result will look like. 

Yes, untagged data is 'assumed' to be the color space in the color settings and that's a good start. Some color space has to be used. But unless the user goes into the color settings, that may not be discoverable. Until the user actually assigns a profile, I would be hard-pressed to recommend tagging the document as such on saving alone. It might be the right answer but it's just as likely the wrong answer. So now you have what was an untagged document, tagged simply by saving it if/when the user simply checks that box. But did the user mean to do so, did the user actually look and Assign the profile (clearly no)? This might not be the best default. 

Pros: Untagged data is now tagged when saving (based on something found elsewhere in the color settings). 

Cons: is this the right tag, did the user click this option knowing what they were doing? 

Forcing the embedding after the Assign Profile command at least confirms the user assigned the profile as they viewed a soft proof while doing so. Now the check box should be on, done. 

Going back to the old behavior is probably much better than what we have now (confusing when trying to click the check box). But it could be better; to tell the user at this time, that he/she should actually assign the profile. Now at Save, the check box is on automatically.