Do Adobe Devs consider customers when deploying updates? [PS 2019]

[Jason Burnett]

This may sound snarky, but I am shocked and appalled by the latest peculiar updates in Photoshop 2019.

And before this thread goes too far, I'm not looking for a specific answer to a problem so I am marking this as a discussion and not a question. You won't get your precious points or get recognized for being the biggest fanboy if you reply to this. Don't feel obliged to answer this if you are one of the industrious folks who have lots of questions to answer and feel pressed for time. Focus your energy where it does the most good.

I am hoping to open a discussion about the way that Adobe Devs make decisions regarding updates that change workflow. I realize this is a customer forum, but I was hoping to hear from other customers to see if I am completely off my rocker.

It appears to me that Adobe does not consider the way that people use their products and have become accustomed to using their products. It appears that the devs have decided that they know what is best for the customer whether the custom likes it or not. Like the sudden and completely ridiculous change in the transform tool in Photoshop. For those of us who are familiar with the keyboard modifications using the transform tool, everything has changed.

Why don't the Devs at least provide a "legacy" setting for changes in tool settings? It seems like a setting that let you choose "Proportional Scaling by Default" would be a simple way to accommodate the thousands (millions?) of users that are used to having to hold down keyboard modifiers to use Proportional Scaling using the transform tool.

Is this just an example of what happens when a company has become a monopoly? Once you either buy off all the competition or just muscle them out of business, you can do whatever you want to your customers and so long as you have the fanboys to ridicule and insult your majority of users, you'll get away with it?

Adobe has never been very good at considering their customers when implementing upgrades, but now that they have the service in the cloud, you don't have the option of using your legacy software because it works better for you. If this were like any other business where there was competition, Adobe would lose so many customers that they would be forced to consider the needs and desires of existing customers.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

Thanks in advance for your input. (Let the fanboy hate replies come rolling in).

[JJMack]

I believe Adobe development take many things into consideration before releasing updates.  However, Adobe  Add. Removes and Changes feature in Photoshop. Adobe does not maintain Photoshop so it is always backwards compatible with previous releases and Adobe has engineered Bugs and changes features the work the opposite way then previous version. For example Text where Esc now Commits not cancel.  Transform Shift now is sometimes unconstrained rather than constrain.  Adobe re-implemented ScriptUI some old Photoshop script and Extension no longer work because of the re-implementation  for example Adobe mini Bridge does not work in CC version of Photoshop. I have been using Photoshop for more than 20 years.  I do not believe Adobe will change their behavior. I would advise you to do what I do  keep several version of Photoshop installed and work around Photoshop's bugs. Currently I have CS3, CS6, CC 2014, CC 208 and CC 2019 installed. CS3, CS6 and CC 2014 are very stable version of Photoshop. If you have old version you have the option of using them.    Old Creative cloud users had the option of using CS6 but Adobe has now taken that off the board for new subscribers.  Its seems that Adobe is in some legal litigation with some  third part developers like Dolby.

Adobe has received flack from users and sometime make additional changes.  There are now Photoshop Preference to use the old consistent legacy Transform behavior and a text Preference to change ESC to be cancel not commit.

I think Photoshop is a powerful Image editor so I am a Photoshop fanboy. However I have never been an Adobe support or Adobe Development fanboy. Adobe needs new management and software development procedures.  Adobe unleashes far too many bugs.

[Nancy OShea]

I admit Photoshop has injected some major changes into our workflow lately but nothing I can't get accustomed to.    I never understood why Undo (Ctrl / Cmd + Z) didn't work when repeated the way it does in every other application.   So I was really glad to finally see that fixed. 

Re-scaling images without the shift key was another major change for people like me who have used Photoshop forever.  And there is a legacy option for that in Preferences.  But so far, I've resisted using it. 

I think everyone should be part of the pre-release process at least once to fully appreciate what goes on behind the scenes.  IMO beta testing is a thankless job.   One must be very dedicated and not easily frustrated when things don't get fixed in time for the public release.  And this isn't unique to Adobe or even computer software.   2 months after purchasing my previous washing machine, it was re-called for major safety reasons.   At least Photoshop bugs are not life threatening  .

[JJMack]

If Photoshop was critical software like an Operating system with Adobe policies it would go out of business. Reported bugs should be addressed. In an OS if they are not the OS will not be used.   Adobe stays in business only because Photoshop is not critical and the number of unfixed bugs is growing.  Adobe should change user wokflow without warning.

[Nancy OShea]

My OS has had lots of bugs over the years.  And MS and Apple usually send out a patch 1-2 months later.   Security vulnerabilities are patched quicker for obvious liability reasons.  

[JJMack]

I find that Photoshop CC 2019 has some of the same bug I have in CS3  and CS6 and CC 2014 and CC 2018 some bugs it seems Adobe does not care to fix. Additionally CC 2019 has bugs that are not in prior version of Photoshop.  IMO Adobe has some poor policies.

[Ussnorway]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/JP+Burnout  wrote

It appears to me that Adobe does not consider the way that people use their products and have become accustomed to using their products. It appears that the devs have decided that they know what is best for the customer whether the custom likes it or not.

correct but when you need it to work on ipads then changes had to be made

[c.pfaffenbichler]

Is this just an example of what happens when a company has become a monopoly?

Which Adobe application are you talking about?

Because obviously there are alternatives to Photoshop so using the word »monopoly« (which has a meaning/definition after all) to describe its market position would seem nonsensical.

Why don't the Devs at least provide a "legacy" setting for changes in tool settings?

If you are still talking about the Transform-changes then the option exists, now one can set it in the Preferences whereas previously there was a more involved approach.

If you are talking about something else please make clear which Tool settings you mean specifically.

Generally the issues you complain about seem close to irrelevant to me.

At current one can still keep older CC versions, so one need not use the most current version, and the changes you mentioned don’t seem worth the fuss to me.

Remember when they changed the shortcut for selecting the composite channel from cmd-0 to cmd-2 (and for the R, G, B, C, M, Y, K etc. channels correspondingly)?

At the time it was annoying but ultimately the effort to learn the new shortcuts was not that steep …

(One lasting negative effect of this concerns selecting Whites, Neutrals, Blacks in the Selective Color Adjustment, though.)

[Chuck Uebele]

My personal opinion is that they do consider customers, but more new and inexperienced customers. Maybe trying to make it easier for them, while disrupting the workflow of more experienced users. As Nancy stated, some of the changes I didn't like, but as I got used to them, they did make a bit more sense - others, not so much.

[JJMack]

How well do you like Adobe like Problem support as seen on their site Photoshop Family Customer Community . Adobe Acknowledges some reported problems are Adobe Problems and even mark some as in progress and they remaine that way year after year.  The vast majority of Problem reports never seem to be looked as  they are in a group "Needs a Solution".

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[Chuck Uebele]

I have talked with Stephen Nielson, Adobe's product manager, regarding this. Fixing bugs comes down to a lot of issues. Some bugs are easy to fix, and are fixed quickly. Is the bug a catastrophic bug that causes crashes or major failure? Those are attempted to fix quickly also. Are there work arounds for the bug? Those may not be fixed as quickly or not at all. How many complaints are logged against a bug? The more complaints, the more likely it will get fixed, but not always. Will fixing the bug cause other more severe problems. Sometimes fixing a bug isn't as easy as people think, the the fix might be worse than the actual bug. They also have their budget, which they have to adhere to, so the bugs have to be prioritized. They do fix a tremendous amount of bugs, but obviously not all of them, or nearly enough.

[JJMack]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Chuck+Uebele  wrote

They do fix a tremendous amount of bugs, but obviously not all of them, or nearly enough.

The real problem is Adobe should not release the tremendous amount of bugs they do. Adobe need better software development and testing procedures. Bugs are effecting millions of subscribers all bug should be fixed not propagated into new release of their products. Yes some bugs are easy to fix other are hard to fix.  Adobe's policy of fixing only easy problems and stability problems IMO is Adobe support bug.  Please enlighten me when is fixing a problem worse If the prblem is worse the problem is not fixed.

[Ussnorway]

agreed but testing cost money to do correct and its easy to just ship it busted then worry about bugs later

[Chuck Uebele]

Ussnorway Yes, testing and fixing issues cost money! Every software has bugs, just some more so than others, depending in the complexity of the software. Shipping it and worrying about the bugs later is how Microsoft got so big and beat it the competition.

[JJMack]

Not fixing bugs make Photoshop worse bugs accumulate there are now more bugs to bite new Adobe users then before. The number of user bitten grows. How many new user wonder why they should use Photoshop.  Old user hang in there for they have invested a lot of time, training their employees to use Photoshop, invested money and resources developing tools for Photoshop and they have develop work around for bugs that effect their work as  Adobe declines to fix the bugs their report bugs.  Microsoft always knew they needed to fix bugs and they do.  In the beginning it was a rocky road the only way Microsoft keep customers was demonstrating good new features and showing they were serious about fixing  Problems. Their story was not different then IBM story from 1960 to 1980 it took IBM 20 years the get their Operating Systems  very reliable.

[jane-e]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Chuck+Uebele  wrote

Sometimes fixing a bug isn't as easy as people think

So true, Chuck — I’ve only done a smattering of programming, but enough to know that changing even one line of code in one place can cause problems elsewhere if not properly addressed. Plus some of the “bugs” that have been reported have actually been bugs caused by graphics cards, font managers, OS, and various plug-ins and other things. If one person can’t open a .png and millions can, is that a Photoshop bug? I don’t have an answer to that — I trust the engineers to decide.

There aren’t nearly as many people in Prerelease as there ought to be — the more people who beta test with varied setups, the better the next release will be.

[JJMack]

jane-e  wrote

I trust the engineers to decide.

Management decide company policy not engineers and also where to use resources.  I sure Adobe's programmers would fix the problems if their management would let them and pay them. Adobe  Management use program engineering recourses to bring new users with new features.  Only major bugs have to be fixes.  Chuck wrote talked with Stephen Nielson, Adobe's product manager, regarding this. Fixing bugs comes down to a lot of issues was the answer.  Bottom line number 1 issue IMO.

Beta testing is a lot of work you do is for free with the hope of getting a better product and have to sign a none discloser agreement. Adobe is lucky to have as many beta testers as they do. Still too many bugs are released.

[jane-e]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/JP+Burnout  wrote

It appears to me that Adobe does not consider the way that people use their products and have become accustomed to using their products. .

Hi JP,

My experience has been that the folk at Adobe are very receptive to their user base. One of the things I love most about attending Adobe MAX has been the opportunity to sit at a round table discussion with the engineers and product managers who work at Adobe and be able to give feedback directly.

I know you don’t want specific help, but changing to not needing Shift for constrain brings Photoshop in line with newer applications, such as Affinity, iPad apps, and even resizing in the Jive window when posting a screen shot in these forums.

Resizing with Shift - inconsistency - Pre 1.7 thread archive - Affinity | Forum

If you allow Adobe to glean information as you work, they can better track how people use the software. I used to disable that setting until I found out how much they use it to find out how people use it and to improve the program.

They have provided a feedback site for bug reports and feature requests where you can vote and track what is being worked on. To me, it shows that they are very interested in their customers.

Photoshop Family Customer Community

When Adobe changed Transform to be proportional without Shift and folk posted there in protest, we were given a checkbox to revert to legacy behavior. Here’s the link:

Photoshop CC 2019: Transform/Resize is constrained by default - Want ability to go back to legacy be...

I’ve been using PS since version 3.0 came out in 1994. I’m grateful for all of the improvements that have been made along the way and would be very frustrated if the Type tool still only put pixels on the current layer instead of live, editable text, for instance.

~ Jane

[Jason Burnett]

@jane-e, thanks for your thoughtful reply. Unfortunately, I am afraid that what you mention about the feedback sounds not entirely unlike the feedback at Ikea.

Now supposedly this computer terminal collects the data from button pushes to let Ikea know how they are doing. They supposedly use this data and some complex algorithms to adjust their ......naw. Oh and the little light on the top goes blinky blinky.

I've been using Adobe products almost as long as Adobe has been around and I remember BEGGING Adobe to allow some sort of customer feedback when they absorbed Freehand and eliminated the only other vector-graphics app worth using. Granted it used non-quadratic transforms that Illustrator didn't but Adobe didn't really care and there was no way to get them to listen.

You would think at least that Adobe would use the feedback in the bug reports to help prioritize bug fixes, but alas that has not been my experience. The same is true with any monolithic near-monopoly in the tech field. They are focused on implementing aspects that do not belong in Photoshop but allow them to claim they have new features so they get more money from new users.

The fact remains that nobody wants pixels for text the way they did it when I started using Photoshop. Your praise of such a basic accommodation sounds specious there. Nobody is complaining about the fact that Adobe Photoshop continues to improve. In fact, content-aware everything is brilliant and getting better every day whereas non-photo editing tools like the 3D render tools (which are and always will be substandard to a program whose entire focus is 3D rendering) are a total waste of time and money and should be plugins.

As for it being a numbers game, sure. I see that. Greedy folks at the top are driving their devs to create new features to lure in new customers. They are releasing crappy software with the promise to come back and clean it up later. Not a new model.

But what would be great is if Adobe would offer a new version of Photoshop with a development team that focused on fixing the existing problems, isolating non-image-editing features and making them plugins, and optimizing the user experience Even if they called it Photoshop Basic, it would be nice to see how many people would use it in place of the monstrosity we use now.

In fact, strip all of the vector crap from Photoshop and leave it in Illustrator. If you want vector functions, use a smart object from Illustrator. All of the text crap should be left in InDesign and if you want text in Photoshop, use a smart object from InDesign. It would be great to see how sleek and modular the core apps could get and the consistency between interfaces would be amazing. Make it all configurable and put it out there to see if folks would use it.

Instead, each app redevelops the wheel with their own preferences and their own bugs and limitations and you end up flipping back and forth to combat the mess anyways.

I know, I know. Get back in line, take your creative suite like everyone else and be grateful for non-pixelized text. Give us your money and press one of the emoji face buttons to let us know how we are doing.

[davescm]

Whether we like it or not, if companies are to survive then they need to provide a return to their investors which means they need to grow. That in turn means that marketing led, bottom line affecting, developments will get priority.

Adding limited functionality from other apps (vectors, text, 3D etc) has made Photoshop the only app needed for many users . That, in turn, has led  to the success of the Photography subscription plan bringing Photoshop to a wider customer base than ever before and growing Adobe as a company.

I am all for dealing with the bugs, of which there are too many, but also recognise that in a realistic world they will have to take their place in the priority list with other functions and that may mean that some will never reach the top of the list. One thing that brings hope is that we can see evidence of some of the very old core code atcthecheart of Photoshop being changed e.g. the current inclusion of the 'use legacy compositing' checkbox in Preferences. It may be that this will enable some of the lower priority, or not economic to fix, issues being addressed.

Am I a Photoshop fan? Yes, and I make no apology for that. I also get frustrated and annoyed  with some of the bugs just like other users of the app. But I remain optimistic and involved as that is the best way to keep issues on the radar.

Dave

[c.pfaffenbichler]

Am I a Photoshop fan? Yes, and I make no apology for that.

Well, good thing you are just a »fan« and not a »fanboy« …

[JJMack]

davescm  wrote

Adding limited functionality from other apps (vectors, text, 3D etc) has made Photoshop the only app needed for many users . That, in turn, has led  to the success of the Photography subscription plan bringing Photoshop to a wider customer base than ever before and growing Adobe as a company.

I agree why change to an other application like AI if you just want to add a sinple graphic to a document. Limited function added to Photoshop has made Photoshop a better product and the numbers show that.  I do not want to learn how to use and maintain an other Adobe Products the cost is to high for me. I don't have the time required for that task. Fixing Photoshop bugs could improve Adobe bottom line some IMO.  Adobe management believe what they do is better for their bottom line.  Hopefully some day fixing bug will be someting Adobe management will think will help improve their bottom line.

[Jason Burnett]

I'm just so glad Adobe finally let me check my email and do messaging directly in Photoshop. Thank goodness I don't have to learn another app.

[jane-e]

davescm  wrote

Adding limited functionality from other apps (vectors, text, 3D etc) has made Photoshop the only app needed for many users .

Dave, you might be thinking of InDillushop/XD, announced at the beginning of April of this year?

https://indesignsecrets.com/adobe-launches-all-in-one-creative-app-indillushop-xd-replacing-photosho...

~ Jane

[Ussnorway]

I hear it has sex with you each morning and then does the washing up while you enjoy breakfast