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Hate the new Select and Mask tool!

Forum|Forum|9 years ago
June 24, 2016
10 replies
28892 views

Getting rid of the Refine Edge tool is probably the biggest set back in the history of PS. I love this tool and use it constantly to get my masks just right. The new Select and Mask tool only works on pixel layers. I understand that in order for the edge detection/radius tool to work properly the mask must be on a pixel layer. However, that tool isn't all that refine edge offers! The smooth, feather, contrast, and shift edge tool are extremely powerful, as well as quick and easy, when working with masks on adjustment layers. My quick short cut into refine edge no longer works. I have to either drag the mask to a pixel layer or find other ways to adjust it. None are as efficient as a quick option/command R and typing in my adjustments as I tab through the refinements. I am EXTREMELY frustrated and disappointed. Does anyone know of any work arounds to get refine edge back? Please help!!!!!!!

This topic has been closed for replies.

Correct answer baer2

Thank you all for your comments here, we are actively looking into the behaviors described. If you have any files you can send us where you see a notable degradation in output using select and mask, we want those files. These will help us identify specific issues in the workflow and with the underlying algorithm.

One of the behaviors described in this thread is that select and mask only works on a pixel layer. This is a bug (we have a fix we're working on) and in the meantime, a workaround is available by double clicking the mask to enter the select and mask space on non-pixel layers.

We are also actively looking at the performance of the subtract refine edge brush- please stay tuned for more updates here as we build a case to identify exactly what the underlying issue might be.

This is the first release of Select and Mask, but we do have on our backlog the addition of other tools in this space to allow a greater range of workflow. More to come here.

T T O M O

Inspiring

This re-imagining of refine edge has been awful for me.

I disagree with anyone claiming that the tool needs to be learned. It's been demonstrated to have all the same options as refine edge. What time would be spent learning tools that are the "same"? There's nothing new to learn other than refine edge is now called select and mask and opens a new window with familiar options that don't work as well as they used to.

- It's extremely laggy. I could easily drag the brush with refine edge, now there's a massive lag whether transparency is on or off.

- As you "refine", the image edge will first flicker and soften making it even harder to know what you're working with/on and the brush lag adds to that.

- refining does not seem to work as easily as before. What used to be a few simple strokes along an edge is now leaving a messy edge requiring a lot more work.

- IT'S LAGGY, I find it visually challenging to know what I'm doing. I didn't have this issue before. The results are different and the effort and time is prolonged despite these being the "exact" same tools.

Terri Stevens

Legend

I've given up defending Select and Mask , it either works for you or it doesn't. There are though alternatives available Topaz Remask, OnOne Perfect Mask for example which offer a lot more hand holding, which may be what is required. I must say though that some of the images posted in the threads here will not work even with those commercial products.

Socrates_in_NJ

Known Participant

Interesting that you mentioned Topaz Remask. I had been using it for several years and I was pleased with it. However, when I tried the Select and Mask, I found it to be much easier, quicker and more effective. I did grumble a lot going through the learning process.

KimberlyPek

Known Participant

I too am having difficulty with this tool. If I already made a perfect selection/mask, why should i go back in and change my selection? It is driving me insane, and ruining my results. It is taking hours, and I can't edit previously made masks without reselecting them. Please bring back refine edge by itself. PLEASE.

photostephen

Participating Frequently

I am not against new tools. but I am being hit with a major bug in the Select and Mask tool, and on my Windows based computer, it is totally not working. When I use the Refine Edge brush, it just randomly unselects already selected areas and randomly selects areas which are not even close to the selection. Basically, on my computer, it just randomly picks about 30% of the image at random.

And any selection that I started with, looks significanly worse than if I had just not tried to enhance it.

I want the old Refine Edge back, because it works! Not a buggy new tool.

Bombelkie

Participating Frequently

As you can see something that took just 15 mins has taken 1h and still not even close to the same results. I have to go in and paint the mask which takes an extra long amount of time. Time is money and I am getting backed up immensely. People on here are saying that we don't want to take the time to learn the new Select and Mask Command, that's not the problem. The problem is the fact that you have gone and simply replaced it and not simply added it as a new option just doesn't make any sense. You have added hours to something that took no more then 15mins and still doesn't work half as good as something that worked perfectly.

Just bring the refine tool back. Im paying for something that just "SUBSTANTIALLY" delayed my work flow.

Socrates_in_NJ

Known Participant

Just bring the refine tool back. Im paying for something that just "SUBSTANTIALLY" delayed my work flow.

The new tool has SUBSTANTIALLY sped up my work flow. Of course, I did take the time to learn how to use it.

JiweeonAuthor

Known Participant

Socrates_in_NJ...

What is your purpose in this discussion? To play devils advocate to everything anyone ever says? Why don't you do us all a favor and actually say something constructive. You have done nothing but annoy everyone and definitely aren't doing Adobe any favors with your immaturity. If you want to convice the world that this new tool is worth keeping around than you're gonna have to take a new, more intellectual approach.

Bombelkie

Participating Frequently

This new update has seriously set me back... It used to take me about 15min to make a nice/perfect mask.... With this update I've been working on the same photo for hours now and can't get anything close to what I used to be able to get. You see I'm working with a subject against a black background... some of the edges get really close to the same color as the background. with the REFINE EDGE tool it would still find the edges (then I would go in and simply refine just the edge), now all it does is remove the dark areas from background as well as the subject, no matter how many times i try to hone the edges with all the different brushes... it still keeps removing colors that i need in some areas. It can't, and won't, just select the edges that i want.... LOVE THE HAIR THING!!! (infact that was the one thing that made me struggle).... but I noticed that all your video tutorials are showing photos taken against a light background (contrast)... this will not work for what I'm doing, all my images are against a dark background. Why not keep both REFINE EDGE and SELECT AND MASK? First time ever Adobe has let me down.

Trevor.Dennis

Community Expert

Guys I have had a good look at this, and I am not having the same issues. Yes it is different, and I agree it was initially frustrating because I had to learn a new workflow, but I think it is definitely better.

You can certainly access the Select & Mask workspace on an Adjustment layer, by double clicking the layer mask. You can exit that by either clicking on OK or Cancel, or hitting the Escape key.

As far as I can see, everything that was in Refine Edge is there in the Select & Mask workspace, plus more. I really think I must be missing something, because I am not seeing what you guys seem to be seeing. I've just read the whole thread again, and noticed that Adobe Staff member baer2 has reflected what I said about double clicking the layer mask on adjustment layers. Is that such a hardship?

Socrates_in_NJ

Known Participant

Trevor.Dennis wrote:
Guys I have had a good look at this, and I am not having the same issues. Yes it is different, and I agree it was initially frustrating because I had to learn a new workflow, but I think it is definitely better.
You can certainly access the Select & Mask workspace on an Adjustment layer, by double clicking the layer mask. You can exit that by either clicking on OK or Cancel, or hitting the Escape key.
As far as I can see, everything that was in Refine Edge is there in the Select & Mask workspace, plus more. I really think I must be missing something, because I am not seeing what you guys seem to be seeing. I've just read the whole thread again, and noticed that Adobe Staff member baer2 has reflected what I said about double clicking the layer mask on adjustment layers. Is that such a hardship?

I agree wholeheartedly. It does have a learning curve and I suspect that that's the real issue for those that are unhappy.

Trevor.Dennis

Community Expert

Socrates_in_NJ wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly. It does have a learning curve and I suspect that that's the real issue for those that are unhappy.

Glad I am not the only one seeing it this way. Blokes don't like to read instructions, but Julianne Kost covers it in a fairly painless way

Select and Mask « Julieanne Kost's Blog

As usual, she demystifies all the major changes in her blog: I refuse to link to the ridiculous Crop and fill feature, but her video on the new Typographic features is well worth a watch.

B

baer2Correct answer

Adobe Employee

Thank you all for your comments here, we are actively looking into the behaviors described. If you have any files you can send us where you see a notable degradation in output using select and mask, we want those files. These will help us identify specific issues in the workflow and with the underlying algorithm.

One of the behaviors described in this thread is that select and mask only works on a pixel layer. This is a bug (we have a fix we're working on) and in the meantime, a workaround is available by double clicking the mask to enter the select and mask space on non-pixel layers.

We are also actively looking at the performance of the subtract refine edge brush- please stay tuned for more updates here as we build a case to identify exactly what the underlying issue might be.

This is the first release of Select and Mask, but we do have on our backlog the addition of other tools in this space to allow a greater range of workflow. More to come here.

KimberlyPek

Known Participant

Can you temporarily bring back refine edge until bugs are fixed? This is killing my work flow!

JiweeonAuthor

Known Participant

postt62981012 described the issues with Select and Mask perfectly. Many of us have a workflow that works beautifully and efficiently with refine edge. After watching multiple tutorials on your new Select and Mask tool, it is obvious that you are catering to the unprofessionals at home who wish to easily mask out people and animals from their original backgrounds. I get that no one likes change, but it is ludicrous to me that you are trying to sell this tool to professionals as a powerful way to quickly make/adjust masks. Refining edges is not a global process, it is very subjective and needs to be viewed as so. We need to quickly be able to adjust for different areas of a mask and selectively brush in where these adjustments have been made. Something that fades into a background may need multiple Refine Edge adjustments and selective history brushing to get it just right. Stop making your primary focus on refining hair and fur. It's great if you want to have a SEPARATE task tool for that, such as Select and Mask, but do NOT get rid of refine edge and replace it with this. Not everyone is working with hair or texture when they are creating a mask.

You took something that wasn't broken and shattered it into a million pieces.

I am frustrated that I had to reinstall the older version of Photoshop. At some point I will need to update and I hope the new update reintroduces refine edge and keeps Select and Mask as a separate task tool. You know, for the moms at home making cat memes.

P

postt62981012

Participant

Jiweeon is spot on here, his opinion is shared by myself and all of the Photographers and Retouchers that I personally know. This new tool is not only buggy, but an attempt of dumbing down Photoshop in an area that hurts.

This was a very simple tool to begin with... You make a selection through whatever means you prefer: Pen tool, Lasso, Color Range, Magic Wand, Quick Select, etc, then just hit Refine Edge and brush in areas that need it and use the subtract brush where you don't need it.

How is this update improving on that workflow?

Important detail: not every selection we make needs Refine Edge and sometimes we realize we need it after already making a selection, so why would you tie the selection process to the Refine Edge process? Why not keep them separate? You need Refine Edge for one of your selections? Cool, use Refine Edge. I'm not saying that you've tied the selection process entirely to the Select and Mask Tool, but you've certainly made it clear that a simplified Selection/Refine all-in-one tool is taking the place of a very useful, independent tool. At the very least, make it possible for Select and Mask to operate as it once did by fixing the Subtract Refine Edge brush. That way, I can make a decent selection using all the tools available in Photoshop and hit Select&Mask and Add/Subtract Refine Edge and hit 'Okay.'

Also, if this is an extremely better version of making selections overall, then why are the only tools available in it the Brush Tool, Quick Select, and Lasso? Surely you know how limited a selection can potentially be using only these tools...

If you're not going to return Refine Edge, make it possible for professional users to use Select and Mask as an independent Refine Edge tool. The Subtract Refine Edge tool is broken. With that flaw, it exposes how bad the Selection options are in Select and Mask. If I can't subtract the Refine Edge effects, that forces me to use the limited tools that you included in Select and Mask to fix my mask back to where it was before in some areas.

It speaks volumes that the majority of the videos regarding this new tool are about Onion Skin. Great layout for some, I'm sure, but the tool has broken functions... Where are the priorities here?

Mohammad.Harb

Community Expert

Hi Jiweeon ,

The Select and Mask Command is Extremely better than refine edge,

in refine edge , you have to make selection first then Refine it,

Refine edges now has been re-Engineered and given and New Name ,

Now you can start your Selection and refine it All in one Place .

To get back to the older refine Edge:

in the Creative Cloud Applicaiton , next to Photoshop you Will find an Open Icon , there is a hidden GEAR icon left to it

Click Uninstall , then Reinstall Photoshop ..when it asked to Update to 2015.5 click on the advanced Tab

and uncheck "delete older Version "

JiweeonAuthor

Known Participant

Thank you for letting me know to get back to the older version. I am

extremely sad to see the refine edge tool go the way it has. I completely

disagree with you. Refine edge allows you to edit masks quickly and

efficient on the fly. It required a key short cut and quickly entering in

values. Now I have to enter this whole other tool in order to edit my mask.

You do not have to make a selection in order to use refine edge. You can

use refine edge on ANY mask at any point. It doesn't bog your machine down

and I can use it over and over with my history brush tool to get a mask

just right. If nothing at all... you should at least make it so you can

refine masks on a non pixel layer.

For example - Lets say I have a mask I've created using Select and Mask...

I then use this mask on a group of layers. Then, as I'm working I notice

that there is a halo around my object and would like to shift the mask

edge... so I go to my mask that is now on my group and try and contract

(shift edge) the mask. I cannot easily do this anymore. I have to drag the

mask back to a pixel layer and figure out how I'm going to view it properly

so I know how much I need to shift my edge. Just insane that you think this

new tool is better.

This is a huge set back. Creating masks isn't always as simple as your new tool would like to

think it is.

On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Mohammad.Harb <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

Mohammad.Harb

Community Expert

HI Jiweeon.

I do understand your Point ,,, Let's consider " Select and Mask " as if its first version and it will have New improvements in the upcoming updates, if you use Photoshop years ago back in CS4 there was Nothing called refine radius Tool in refine edge!

and in CS3 there was nothing called Refine edge.

To get the " Select and Mask " on any layer Mask ( even ) on Adjustment Layer ... the keyboard shortcut in NOT Working .. its been Missed .... But for Now Double Click on the Mask to Get into the Selection and Mask. it works 100%

if you want to Apply select and Mask on Any Layer .. convert it to smart Object

When we use a Mask we usually Use " Brush Tool " not the Histroy Brush Tool as you mentioned above

We paint with White to Reveal the hidden Area and Paint with Black to Hide Visible Area.

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