Photoshop CS4 is a disaster

[_ProArtist_]

I'm am just at a loss of words.

What a mess. It could not be any slower. What were you thinking Adobe?

You ripped apart the code just to add GPU support for what? To provide worse performance?

Make sure you DL the demo first... CS4 is a disaster.

The latest hardware cant even run it smoothly... Dont tell me its graphic drivers.

[Guest]

First off, thanks to the Adobe engineers for paying attention. I'd like to affer an insight that may help them/us resolve the issue(s). Also, sorry for the arguabley long post!

As pointed out in another thread, networked printers can wreak havoc on performance (not to discout video card problems). It was implied that perhaps there was an issue with Photoshop code but I sort of disagree. In fact, the issue may involve more than just networked printers. Qualifier, I am using an HP C6180 so this may not apply to other manufacturers/models.

I recently reinstalled Win XP SP3 and other programs systematically for general troubleshooting purposes (a bunch of weird system errors and so forth that have begun since SP3). All worked well until I installed the printer drivers. I am hard pressed to say if this is a conflict because I tried various software combinations and came up with the same errors related to system files. Perhaps there is a hardware or driver issue (RAID controller conflict?) but it doesn't appear anywhere as such.

Obviously, if OS system files (.dll errors among others not addressed by Microsoft) are being affected then it is reasonable to assume that Photoshop and other programs become susceptible to problems. It appears that CS4 and new versions of other resource intensive software applications are particularly so.

Here's the killer thing: if I uninstall the printer/ drivers and even clean the registry of all HP entries, the error problems continue to appear until I reformat and start over with a new installation (without the HP drivers). Ditto for SP3. So, something related to the HP installation (and SP3) must be occuring in the MBR/Track 0 or perhpas some other hidden "closet" that is irreversible. This issue occurs only if I reinstall the Microsoft security packs/updates, as well. If I'm not mistaken, the MBR is also where the Adobe activiation code resides.

In conclusion, it appears that HP, at least, has not kept up with changes made with the various service packs and security updates (arguabley MS may be at fault). I also tried Vista and the problems were significantly worse including extreeeeemely(!) slow performance and so forth (despite upgrading to so-called Vista compatible printer and video drivers). The Microsoft upgrade advisor had said everything was hunk dory for an upgrade to Vista but after installation Vista said my Promise RAID controller and high end sound card were incompatible (may explain the performance issues). I also recently discovered Asus has posted my board (P4C 800E Deluxe) is incompatible (or unsupported) with Vista so it is no wonder Microsoft is taking so much well deserved heat in the press. But all of this leads me to conclude that apparent hardware/driver issues and conflicts that are obscure and deep rooted are becoming more critical as our favorite programs evolve. Unfortunately, the never ending security updates seem to be playing a central role, as well.

I am confident that Adobe engineers can figure a few things out for us but I suspect Microsoft is at the heart of the problem. They keep changing the playing field with service packs and security updates without assesing the impacts on the myriad of existing hardware and driver combinations. I'll save the Mac comments until I can afford one (issues for sure but far fewer).

Hope this helps!

[Hudechrome-sd9sPI]

i ........but if you do not know what you are talking about, please do not speculate.

Um, correct.

[hhansard]

Printers and associated monitoring SW can have a negative effect on Windows performance... I can think back to the bad old days of Epson's original monitor agent Now that was a real disaster It could cripple an entire system...

Actually, I can think back to my graduate school days when I wrote some of the original Postscript drivers for Adobe Just thinking about the red book brings shivers.

However, it must be noted that this is squarely an Adobe PS issue.... Not Windows... Not video card manufactures, not chip sets, not drivers, not anything but PS.

Personally, I have the Master Suite. The other apps run well (including AE CS4 --> which is far more intensive then PS.) I also run FormWorks, AutoCAD, various 3D modeling, 3D shading, and NLE SW and HD Video SW. Again, all far more intensive then anything attempted by PS. None of these apps have any problems, and neither did CS3...

It's just CS4 PS and 2.1 LR. The issues with PP CS4 have largely been fixed with the 4.1 upgrade.

I am sure that Adobe will shortly release a PS CS 4.1 -- I have some work-arounds in place for my system and will stick with CS4, but hoping for a timeframe on the 4.1

Hugh

[PeterK__]

>The nVidia FX series has been out for what, five years. The card I am using was "top of the line" (i.e. $3,000) three years ago. The Open GL spec has not changed during the beta test phase of CS4

And I suppose there were no driver updates in all that time either, eh? If everything tested fine for them on the particular setups they had available at the time, what is it you want from Adobe?

[Guest]

Hugh,

Writing the drivers for adobe is pretty impressive. Maybe you could offer to look at their code to see what is up and provide possible solutions to where the break down may be?

Ya, I know you may have a lot on your plate but this will help a lot of people out.

Just a thought

Have a good day

[Guest]

"However, it must be noted that this is squarely an Adobe PS issue.... Not Windows... Not video card manufactures, not chip sets, not drivers, not anything but PS."

I'm not sure this statement addresses the discrepancy in performance that is obviously present among users of PS. I've managed to get PS (and Windows) to behave quite nicely but it has been an ordeal and is definitely related to hardware/driver and service pack issues..at least for me. No speculation here.

[hhansard]

Les, I agree in part. However, I only got PS and LR to work well when I started to disable functionality in PS. For me, it currently works fine (similar to CS3). I will stick with CS4. I bet that PS CS4.01 will be out in the next 3-6 weeks. And will fix most of these issues. If the Adobe Prod Dev staff can comment on timeline it would be appreciated.

However, it I were a betting man, the culprit would be is either system calls or the parameters being passed. That would explain almost everything. If an individual has a a different config, then they may get different results (and acceptable). I used to write OS code and low-level drivers for a living, and this simply smells like the problem. No evidence, but one of those "been there, suffered through that". In my time, I am sure users were cursing me for something similar...

David, sorry, I no longer have access to source. This was a long time ago and is actually a pretty funny story. I was trying to output my thesis on occlusion algorithms (a subset of graphics theory) and the doc would not print on the U's RIP. The problem came down to the RIP's implementation of the red book [this was before the release of the blue book]. I was forced to re-write the postscript driver for the mainframe to get my thesis to print (and get my degree---not a small incentive). Worked many long nights with the folks from Adobe. They were a bunch of good guys. This was before e-mail, so it all came down to phone calls, diet coke and chips.

H

[_iVan_B__]

Well, I decided to take the proactive stance and test a theory. I found a shop that was willing to open a box and try a different video card in my system; if it doesn't fix my issue, they'll take it back. I'll report the results tonight.

[hhansard]

Sorry iVan,

From this thread it looks like you have an nVidia? This thread is geting hard to follow... What are you moving from and what are you moving to?

H

[_iVan_B__]

Yeah, I know; it took me over 2 hrs to get myself up to date with this thread when I first read it the other day.

I got nvidia 8800 gt 512MB. The idea was to try a better card from a different vendor and see if that makes a dif.

It didn't. So the guy suggested running a diagnostic. Turns out that my power supply was maxed out (3 hard drives, 8GB or RAM, 512 video card, quad core cpu, etc...). He actually said he fixed someone else's Photoshop issue that way back when CS first came out. So he swapped the power supply and called me to tell me my 'shop is running smooth. Went to pick it up only to find out he lowered the resolution so he could read stuff on the monitor. I bumped it back up, and it's the same old song. I suggested swapping the cards again; perhaps it was the issue of low power AND nvidia card. He'll try working on that tomorrow (it's kind of nice to have someone else sweat over this for change)

I got dual monitors at 24" each; perhaps I'm overtasking my video card (although I doubt it given the card). He'll try swapping the card again now that I have a skookum power supply (pardon the BC jargon). We should know by the end of the day tomorrow. I am willing to throw money at this problem till it goes away. Well, to a point anyway...

I subscribed to this thread so I get every post delivered to my phone, and I read everyone's inputs. When the issue is solved I'll post all the details here - the hardware/software configuration I had and any changes that I make. I'll make sure we try one thing at the time so we nail this sucker down.

I know Adobe is working on this as well, although I haven't seen any recent posts from the tecs. Wrote to nvidia - no reply so far (it's only been a day though). So, Adobe guys (hope you're reading this), any discoveries on your end so far?

And guys, be nice to Adobe techies. Pissy attitude is only going to make them not want to reply here. When a problem like this happens, you better be sure they're working on it.

[Guest]

>And guys, be nice to Adobe techies. Pissy attitude is only going to make them not want to reply here. When a problem like this happens, you better be sure they're working on it.

agreed!

[Guest]

iVan, if I've sounded pissy, I apologize. Sometimes it's hard to hear the same old stuff from the techs about "latest drivers" when I already have them.

I will say, though, that the power supply issue rang a bell with me early on, so I upgraded to a 620W Corsair unit. No luck, no difference, nada. My old one, which still works fine, was a 520W Corsair. Maybe I can somehow rig it to make popcorn. :)

[Hudechrome-sd9sPI]

Power supplies are cut and dried. They either work or they don't. I doubt, except for spiky ones, that they would make any difference in these sorts of things.

Now, if you were having these problems intermittently, or a funny startup that is cured by a quick reboot, (or you smell smoke!), I would look to the PS. Other than that, they should be fine.

[_iVan_B__]

That's just the thing, Lawrence. When the guy at the shop told me about the power supply being an issue with slow PSCS, I too was skeptical. But then he called me to tell me my machine was working. I was getting ready to buy him doughnuts; power supply - who knew!!! Pure genius!!!But then I found out the problem wasn't fixed after all.

So I dunno. Maybe he did fix the other dude's machine with a new power supply, maybe he didn't; I'll never know. But I promised I'd relay the score (Photoshop-1, me-0), so I just passed along what he said. I will keep the pwr supply though.

He seemed beat when he realized he didn't solve the issue. But he seems determined to make this thing go away, so I'm hopeful.

And Nick, as I stated in the other thread, I wasn't talking about you in particular. I did feel pissy about that other dude's replies to your posts, though.

EDIT:

I am now wondering if it may be the motherboard. Oh man, this issue just keeps getting more and more convoluted. I guess I have to put flashing the MB on a to-do list if we come up short.

[PECourtejoie]

There was an issue in the past (around '99) with Asus P2B -D* series motherboards, in their first revision, as Photoshop was taxing the memory path so much that it crashed on the older revisions of the mobos.

The crash in Photoshop was a
b symptom
, not the
b cause
of the problem.

[Hudechrome-sd9sPI]

Crashes always are symptoms of something. The crash is frequently the goal in testing parameters.

[Guest]

Hugh, thanks for the post and I agree with your assesment for the most part. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones who've been able to make CS4 work very smoothly withpout having to disable features. As a bonus, CS4 GL features work flawlessly on my dual monitor setup (Dell 2005W) even though the read me file says this is unsupported in WIN XP:). BTW, I'm using a vintage NVidia 6800 card w/512 MB RAM.

Ivan, I can relate! I've spent the better part of three weeks (as time allowed) troubleshooting not only PS but other issues related to Windows. Ultimately, HP printer drivers (and a dying processor!) were found to be at fault. The failure of HP to update drivers and related software since the initial release (and dealing with marginal outsourced tech support) is frustrating to say the least.

As an aside, I did eliminate a bad RAM module from consideration as per very good (non outsourced) tech support from Crucial. You'd never know a stick was bad unless you go through a systematic testing process. Symptoms are similar to a dying processor (in my case ultimately caused by malfunctioning cooling fan) so a RAM intensive program like PS can be very much affected in strange ways.

I've certainly had my share of specific issues with CS2 when it first landed on my desktop several years ago. Fortunately, Adobe engineers, especially Scott Byer, were responsive and ultimately released an update that addressed my issues, as well as others. Thank you! I suspect we'll see an update to CS4 that addresses the performance problems some folks seem to be experiencing.

But I further suspect Adobe will *in part* be creating work arounds to buggy harware drivers and a bogus Vista operating system which was highly touted as a cure all for everyone, including folks such as myself who are still running vintage machines. What a fraudulent dud!Even my Dell laptop which was sold as "Vista Capable" (and followed by a "free" Vista upgrade) won't run it properly. Obviously, Adobe has their work cut out for them but based upon past experience they're up to the task.

[Guest]

>Even my Dell laptop which was sold as "Vista Capable" (and followed by a "free" Vista upgrade) won't run it properly.

there's a lawsuit in progress over the whole vista capable debacle and emails from intel and microsoft are taking current stage. google if you're interested...

[_iVan_B__]

Here is a SitRep:

-Successfully eliminated the video card as an issue; we tried cards from different vendors (all from the Adobes safe cards list), and made sure we loaded the latest drivers. So its definitely NOT the video card (at least in my case). We even flashed the motherboard and tried both video cards again, just in case its a combination of a motherboard driver/video card in the system. Still slow.

-As suggested by the guy at the shop (he said he fixed someone elses issue this way), I installed a new power supply as the previous one was somewhat on the wimpy side. By somewhat I mean a LOT, and by wimpy I mean it was crap; it was a surprise the machine was even running (and to think the shop actually sold this computer with all the hardware and not put a power supply that can run it???). It did solve the problem of my pocked hard drives not having enough juice to power up from USB. Now theyre running faster then a chicken through Ethiopia. However, CS4 is still slow.

-Ran a heavy cocktail of virus checks. I was surprised to discover that 13 viruses were identified, especially given the fact this was a 10 day old Windows installation and I have Kaspersky running on it. However, it turned out that some of those viruses werent viruses, but bona-fide system files operating some of the add-on hardware (like my monitor calibrator). I had an erronious detection and a premature deletion. And now that hardware doesnt work. SC4 still slow.

-Reimaged my hard drive to an early installation state. Updated the drivers, installed CS4 - nada! Slow as usual. The only thing that speeds it up is lowering the resolution; then it runs fine. But I want my pixels back, dammit.

-Now, the only thing I never tried was to completely reformat the hard drive, install Vista, load the drivers, update and then install CS4 ONLY. The thing is that my computer didnt ship with a restore CD; instead it has that factory partition thing HP puts on with a ton of crapware. So I got myself a copy of Vista 64 Home Premium (what I got with the machine in a first place) and Im installing it now. Once its done, Ill load the latest video card driver, update Vista and install Photoshop.

If that doesnt fix the issue, Ill start pulling out my RAM modules, one by one, and look into that.

If that doesnt work, Ill start pulling my hair, one by one, and see if that works. If not, then teeth, then eyeballs, etc, etc

Now, Im determined to at least locate the source of the problem. I may not be able to fix it, but Ill find what the culprit is cause I want to tell Adobe so they can fix it. It smells like motherboard teen spirit right now, but Ill know for sure once I tried everything else. If you guys have any suggestions on what else I might try that I havent thunk of, I wanna hear about it. So keep posting; I get the replies to my phone and I read them all.

Cheers

[Guest]

iVan, I wish you luck. Please keep us posted!

[_iVan_B__]

Streak of bad luck I guess. I didnt want to install the windows from the factory partition as its full of HP junk, so the guy gave me an install CD with a clean copy of Vista. I installed it using the key that shipped with my machine, only to find out its a 32 bit, not 64 @$#&!@^%#$

Another two hours wasted.

The shop is now closed, so I called Microsoft to see if theyd tell me where I can download a clean of copy Windows, since I already paid for it. Basically they said good luck.

So I found a torrent, but the damn thing is going to take me till morning to download, and I was hoping to get all this figured out by then.

Anyone know where I can get a legal copy of Windows Vista Home Premium edition 64 bit? I have a key, so I need a legal CD image or an install file. I couldnt find it on Microsoft site, and I'm looking to get it from a server, so I don't have to wait forever to DL it.

Again, I cant stress this enough; its LEGAL copy Im looking for. Dont send me links of sites with cracked stuff, I have a key that has been paid for. The version must be Vista Home Premium 64 bit cause thats what I had; I dont want to introduce too many variables or Ill never be able to tell where the problem was.

BTW, I got Photoshop to work fine on 32 bit Vista, but then I had no video card drivers installed, therefore no high-res and no 64 bit Photoshop. God only knows if the problem would be there at higher resolution, but I can't load the driver to test since it's for a 64 bit OS.

[_Russell_Proulx_]

iVan,

What brand and model of motherboard is in your system?

Russell

[_iVan_B__]

b FIXED!!!

Those trying to catch up, start from a post # 297, and youll be in the loop.

The last statement in my previous post got me thinking; well, why dont I try loading the 32 bit driver for my card and try Ps at full res; see what happens then. I mean, what better thing can I do on a Friday night while waiting for a 64 bit OS?

So I downloaded the driver and installed it. Fired the Ps, made sure I check the OpenGL option in prefs; restarted and WHAM! Its running slicker than deer guts on a door knob!

OK, dont get yer hopes up; I havent figured out what makes it go ka-ka-coo-coo yet. As soon as I get a clean 64 bit Vista on my system Ill try the same, but something tells me itll be OK.

Then all I have to do is install one driver, one piece of software at the time and test till I find the culprit. This may take a day or two; it depends on how fast I can get my hands on a clean OS, and then Ill install, test and image; install, test and image. And on, and on, and on

It could be many things, my Wacom, Spyder calibrator, any of the myriad of cards I got in my machine (wireless, TV & radio tuner, card readers, etc), a bad piece of code in some software; well see.

The reason for imaging the Hard Drive is so I can compare the results of uninstalling the offending driver/software vs clean install once I know what it is. Given that so many have tried uninstalling suspicious stuff, maybe there is a bad registry entry that stays on even after the uninstall, hence the need for a full format.

But there is a light at the end of the tunnel!

Oh, and Russell, doubt its relevant now, but my motherboard is an HP 5189-1080.

[_iVan_B__]

One last update before I hit the sack @ 4:12 am:

Since my last post I found a clean 64 bit Vista iso online, and its almost fully downloaded (for those that havent been following I have a legal key). In the meantime I decided to test out the image that shipped with my machine and try that out.

Yeah, I said I didnt want the junk that ships with those, but since I had to wait for the download, what the heck. I figured Id try as Ill be reformatting in the morning anyway.

Well, I needed to install some updates and a service pack 1 to install Photoshop. Holy crap that SP1 takes forever!

But once I did (drum roll, please) I got speed!

Were on the right track. Ill reformat in the morning regardless (I dont want the trial anti-viruses and rectal enemas), and once I do, Ill take my time loading and testing to find the culprit.

At this point - still no clue what causes this. But Ill post as I narrow it down. At least something worked

Off to bed now

-iVan

[_Russell_Proulx_]

iVan,

I asked about the motherboard because I had a LOT of problems getting 8gb RAM to run stable on my system. I resolved the problem by switching to a motherboard from a different manufacturer. Try pulling 1/2 the system memory to see if that helps (once you get Vista64 reinstalled). Note that there are motherboard bios settings (memory remapping) on some systems that need to be enabled to work properly with more than 3-4gb RAM, though some mobos do it automatically without a bios setting.

See: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605/

Does your motherboard have a newer bios available? Most install disks that ship with PCs are old by the time the system delivers.

I assume you installed the Vista64 service pack (SP1) and all other updates before installing CS4?

Just a thought..

Russell :-)