Photoshop & Macbook Retina display

[Jim04]

Does Photoshop support the new Macbook Pro Retina display?

[John Waller]

Not yet.

They're working on it (but could be CS 6.5 or CS7)

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2012/06/photoshop-cs6-retina-display-support.html

[MODERATOR adds:]

Please visit the main thread on this issue to continue the conversation:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/4490869

Message was edited by: Brett N

[Lars_Olson]

Good question OP!

It is extremely frustrating that the most linked response to the very common retina support question is a short, single paragraph, vague "we'll soon provide" post from nearly a month ago.

Adobe is trying to sell people on creative cloud. That is a big commitment. Adobe should consider giving people a date for a retina update to their products. What will support it? What won't? When?

It sucks to be a photographer and have to choose between using either the best display ever put on a Mac or using photoshop. Because believe me, you can't use both right now.

It would seem to me that adobe would want to keep people from switching to Aperture. Maybe communicating with their customers, who want to pay them money, would be a start.

[pf22]

msdarkroom wrote: It sucks to be a photographer and have to choose between using either the best display ever put on a Mac or using photoshop. Because believe me, you can't use both right now.

Just out of interest msdarkroom, how many hours do you think you could tolerate using Photoshop on a... 15 inch screen?

I have the iPad3 and the Retina Display is stunning, but I use it as a digital portfolio, and "work" on a 24" monitor, in fact, I don't even have a notebook because I think the screens are just too small.

I don't really care how many gazillion megapixels they squeeze into the display, you're still squinting into a 15" screen.

Most of the designers and photographers I know are using massive 27-30" displays, many are running dual screen set-ups, so I have to admit to being somewhat bemused by all this interest in the new MacBook Pro from the creative community, especially if it's your primary machine.

Now, a 21 or 27" iMac with a Retina Display... that would be something to lust after!!!

[davetwo]

Occasionally I'm forced to work on my Macbook, which is a nightmare, as the glossy screen reflects like a mirror. A billion pixel display won't change this . If you're a serious photographer use something else.

[Lars_Olson]

PF22,

No idea how long I could or would use Ps on a 15-inch screen.

The OP asked about retina support, which along with any type of info from Adobe, is not here.

I spoke of the best screen on a Mac as of now. Support isn't here for that screen.

I normally use photoshop on a 24-inch display, which is not what the OP asked.

Gear, screen size, etc.,aside, I am confident that somebody with great vision could use a 15-inch screen all day long if it was clear. Look at some of the great photographers of the last generation. They would most likely be more than happy with a 15-inch screen.

-MS

[Noel Carboni]

You folks talk as though Photoshop won't run at all.  I suspect Photoshop CS6 as it is today will run just fine on a Macbook with Retina Display - it will just have very small UI elements.  Am I wrong?

Many (but not all) of the UI elements can be increased in size using the preference settings.  With that done, for someone familiar with the product from prior use on a bigger screen, I suspect that would be usable in a pinch.  I just did a screen grab of Photoshop myself, and downsized it to half.  Even on my 100 ppi display I could find a way to use it at that size.

Perhaps a magnifier on a stand in front of the screen, such as those shown in the (rather strange) movie "Brazil" would be in order. 

What's a real shame is that Adobe has had folks calling for the ability to increase the size of ALL the UI elements for years, even for non-retina displays - for folks with impairments.  Now they're suddenly scrambling to make it work because a manufacturer has come out with a high-density display.  I have little sympathy for the project planners who failed to give this work priority.

-Noel

[Chris Cox]

>> You folks talk as though Photoshop won't run at all.  I suspect Photoshop CS6 as it is today will run just fine on a Macbook with Retina Display - it will just have very small UI elements.  Am I wrong?

If the user hasn't changed the OS scaling preferences, then Photoshop on a retina display will look just like Photoshop on a non-retina display.

It just won't have smooth text and UI edges that the increased resolution offers, and the image won't be using the full resolution of the display because the OS will be doubling all the pixels automatically.

MacOS on the new machines offers several choices for how to scale applications, including several choices for dealing with apps that don't know about high resolution displays.

>> What's a real shame is that Adobe has had folks calling for the ability to increase the size of ALL the UI elements for years,

Yes, and when we looked into it we found more than a few bugs in the available APIs, and we had no practical displays to test with beyond scaling a few things on 30 inch displays.  So we reported the bugs and waited for fixes.  Some of those fixes just got delivered along with new hardware.  Just because we haven't shipped something doesn't necessarily mean we haven't been trying to make it work - it usually means that something is preventing it from working (OS, drivers, laws of physics, etc.).

[Noel Carboni]

Chris Cox wrote:

If the user hasn't changed the OS scaling preferences, then Photoshop on a retina display will look just like Photoshop on a non-retina display.

Even better than I thought.

Makes me wonder...  Hasn't anyone here actually TRIED it?

-Noel

[Trevor.Dennis]

Noel Carboni wrote:

Makes me wonder...  Hasn't anyone here actually TRIED it?

-Noel

That is such an obvious question, I thought it workth a look:

This image and text come from the review (URL below

'Until Adobe updates Creative Suite 6, the UIs of tools such as Photoshop (above) will look fuzzy, rather than the crisp look on other laptops'

http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/reviews/?reviewid=3366866

This CNet review talks about Photoshop, but I don't think they actually tried it

http://asia.cnet.com/product/apple-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-core-i7-processor-2-3ghz-8gb-15-i...

Nothing definiteive here

http://www.wired.co.uk/reviews/laptops/2012-06/apple-macbook-pro-retina-display-spring-2012

Nor here

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/laptops-and-netbooks/apple-macbook-pro-...

So I don't think there is any meaningful information out there so far, and a screen dump would obviousl be completely meaningless when viewed on a non retina display.

[JJMack]

Chris Cox wrote:

If the user hasn't changed the OS scaling preferences, then Photoshop on a retina display will look just like Photoshop on a non-retina display.

It just won't have smooth text and UI edges that the increased resolution offers, and the image won't be using the full resolution of the display because the OS will be doubling all the pixels automatically.

MacOS on the new machines offers several choices for how to scale applications, including several choices for dealing with apps that don't know about high resolution displays.

So what your writing is Apple realizes there is a problem running programs written for older low resolution displays. So they have programmed into their OSX system options to scale up application windows to simulate running on a lower resolution device.   Things will appear larger and less sharp then they actually are.  Whoop de do. Why pay for a retina display and not use its resolution. Scaling windows up in size is like using 1/4 the retina pixel for every pixel you display Apple scales it to use 4 of the retina display pixels so the pixels is as large as it would be on a 100dpi display.   Just buy a normal lower resolution and don't have the overhead required to scale windows up to simulate 100dpi to use a 226dpi display as a 100dpi device. Waste of money and resources. Applications like Photoshop need to be changed or run on a 100dpi display.

Photoshop has no problem with images and high resolution displays.  Photoshop scales image windows content all the time. Its second nature for us to zoom images and pan about them and also change the window size on screen. The only problem there is is that Photoshop can not zoom its Dialogs and Paletts and bars  Photoshop at best offeres one, two or three size options for these and they were designed for displays that have a resolution around 100DPI.  On a 226 or 326 DPI display these areas will be so physically small you will have difficulty reading the small text and making out which small icon your seeing within these areas.

I find all versions of Photoshop with the exception of CS6 quite useable on my 133DPI displays. The GUI is on the small side. With a magnifying glass or software magnifying glass to see the GUI I would think Photoshop would be useable on a retina display using its native 226Dpi resolution. Its the GUI physical pixel size that is a problem not the 226DPI resolution. If you double the resolution of a display the size of an object becomes 1/4 the size it was on the lower resolution display. If the displays pixel count is not increased the display will be 1/4 the size of the lower resolution display. let get Physical

[Paulo Skylar]

Chris Cox wrote:

Yes, and when we looked into it we found more than a few bugs in the available APIs, and we had no practical displays to test with beyond scaling a few things on 30 inch displays. 

I suppose it depends on  one's definition of  Practical Display.

IBM developed, manufactured and sold  high resolution  (3840 x 2400 pixels) TFT/LC monitors over a decade ago. The T220 and T221 monitors were  22" diagonal displays with 204 pixels/inch.  You can even purchase a used one today.   The monitor was a tour de force,  but functioned very well and was purchased and used by government labs and the medical imaging community. At a functioning level it was practical, impressive and certainly could be used to evaluate high res font designs. Its price may have classified it as not practical to some, dropping over its life from about 18K$ to 8K$. Also, its display subsystem would not be something the Adobe product team would have wanted to start writing code for, but it would have been perfect for the Adobe Labs folks to use in evaluating the impact of high resolution on future adobe products. Maybe they did, but I see no evidence of that.

People seem to be advocating high resolution as an unqualified good thing.  Except for the costs, high res is great for movable displays such as smart phones, tablets and other devices, whose use might be classified as temporary.  For large displays and extended use without eye fatigue, however, there are preferred viewing distances that are related to the user's resting point vergence (RPV) .

Since viewing distance controls what resolution can be resolved, the design of a suitable display for mass use is complicated.  Unless you want to frequently move your head back & forth toward  the display to take advantage of very small pixels there is some practical range of high resolution for the kind of work in which many Photoshop users engage.  My personal opinion is that resolution is closer to 200 ppi than 300ppi.

Paulo

[JJMack]

Paulo Skylar wrote:

I suppose it depends on  one's definition of  Practical Display.

IBM developed, manufactured and sold  high resolution  (3840 x 2400 pixels) TFT/LC monitors over a decade ago. The T220 and T221 monitors were  22" diagonal displays with 204 pixels/inch.  You can even purchase a used one today.  

Yes I have use an IBM T220 and its 204DPI resolution was to rave about  but the display required an expensive video card to handle all the pixel and for Windows use its 9.2Mpixels was installed as multiple displays the desktop was extended to. Being its a single display the desktop is seamless.  I would be willing to bet there would be no OpenGL available for the T220 or T221.   Still you don't need a high resolution display to program for a high resolution display. The Programs would work well on low resolution displays visually the programs GUI would just seem very large perhaps created for the visually impaired. So yes Chris Cox is just putting up an Adobe Smoke Screen he is just puffing smoke.

[Chris Cox]

>> The T220 and T221 monitors were  22" diagonal displays with 204 pixels/inch.

"Big Bertha" - yep, we had one, but it died of old age.

And when it was around, the OS APIs were far from ready (yeah, we gave it a try).

[JJMack]

Chris Cox wrote:

"Big Bertha" - yep, we had one, but it died of old age.

The Big Bertha I remember was a 20+ pound lobster that Julia Chile cooked on TV sure did die but not of old age yet I'm sure it must have been old

[c.pfaffenbichler]

it usually means that something is preventing it from working (OS, drivers, laws of physics, etc.).

Ah, humanity’s old adversary – the laws of physics!

[JJMack]

msdarkroom wrote:

PF22,

No idea how long I could or would use Ps on a 15-inch screen.

I have been using Photoshop on 15" IPS UXGA LCD displays  its 1600x1200 pixels have a 133DPI resolution for years.  I prefer these 133DPI resolution over larger displays with lower resolution. Most 24 and 30 inch displays only have a resolution of 100dpi.  The Mac Book Pro retina display has a 226 DPI resolution images on that display will be sharper and  be a closer match to the sharpness and resolution of your prints.  I'm looking forward to the day when high resolution displays become common place. When displays reach the resolution of the iPhone retina display's 336dpi resolution you will be at the resolution limit of the human eye even if you print at a resolution higher then 336DPI you eyes will not be able to see a difference in resolution between the image on screen or images on paper without the aid of a magnifier.

[ColdfireDigital]

Hello,

I am planning to buy the new MBP with Retina display, actually switching from Windows. Now I became aware that Photoshop isn't compatible with it yet, however, I wonder if I connect an external display, will Photoshop function properly then?

Just have no idea wether the retina display also affects the resolution on an external display one way or another...

I haven't read enough reviews yet to be honest, but I read that you could switch modes, whether to use the Retina function or to have a larger desktop. Or did I misunderstood it?

It's from this site: http://www.cultofmac.com/174582/review-the-2012-retina-macbook-pro/5/

"You can make a compromise, and it’s a nice one. The new Retina MacBook Pros default to a HiDPI 1,440 x 900 pixel desktop, meaning that each pixel of a normal 1,440 x 900 display is essentially comprised of four smaller ones, giving unprecedented visual clarity. You can, however, adjust the settings of a Retina MacBook Pro so that it sacrifices clarity for desktop space, “shrinking” the size of apps and UI elements in relation to the desktop, up to a maximum of an equivalent 1,920 x 1200 resolution. We love this mode: it not only makes non-Retina apps look significantly better, it also gives notebook users a lot more desktop space… a huge perk if you work in multiple windows side-by-side fairly often."

Thanks!

[Jim04]

I visited an Apple store and discussed the issue of Retina displays and the resolution of Adobe CS apps.  We fired up Photoshop CS5 on several of the new Macbook Pros.  Neither I or any of the Apple folks could see any problem either with the UI or an image that we opened with Photoshop.  I do not know what the screen resolution was set at, but these were the Macbook Pros that were on the tables for any customer to try out.  All had CS5.  None had CS6.

I am now beginning to think that this not the big issue that some have made it our to be.  It might even be a non-issue.  Based on what I saw, I would not hesitate to buy a new Macbook Pro with the new Retina display.

[JJMack]

Jim04 wrote:

I am now beginning to think that this not the big issue that some have made it our to be.  It might even be a non-issue.  Based on what I saw, I would not hesitate to buy a new Macbook Pro with the new Retina display.

The issue is is the Retina display being use by the OS as a high resolution display or is the OS scaling small sized application windos up in pixel size so the will be the same phycial size the would on a 100DIP display. 

As Chris Cox wrote

If the user hasn't changed the OS scaling preferences, then Photoshop on a retina display will look just like Photoshop on a non-retina display.

It just won't have smooth text and UI edges that the increased resolution offers, and the image won't be using the full resolution of the display because the OS will be doubling all the pixels automatically.

Actually not 2x the pixels its takes 4x to double the resolution. Why buy a 226DIP display and run it as a 100dpi display just buy a cheaper 100DPI diplay. One should buy a 226 to use its as a 226dpi display.  I would imagine you can switch between scalling and using native resolution. Also Photoshop should be able to run without scaling. Just have a hardware or sofware magnifying handy to enable you to read Pohoshop GUI till Adobe updates Photoshop with a GUI size option suitable for a 226Dpi resolution.

[Noel Carboni]

JJ, how many people buy a new computer for just what's available now?  Think about how much better the Retina Display will look for apps that do know how to use it fully - and you can be sure Apple has some of them now (think iPhoto, etc.).  And we already know Photoshop is going to have an update soon to use it.

-Noel

[JJMack]

Noel do you mean that iPhoto will be able to display image on screen with 4 times as many pixels as Photoshop and iPhoto image displayed will be sharper then Photoshops  images display and close to print resolution Oh my.   I still don't want to use apple GUI and conform to Steve Jobs marching ordere though he has a hell of a band its the devel in me.

I sure hope Adobe first fixes the bugs in Photoshop soon give me a break....

[Noel Carboni]

JJMack wrote:

Noel do you mean that iPhoto will be able to display image on screen with 4 times as many pixels as Photoshop and iPhoto image displayed will be sharper then Photoshops  images display and close to print resolution Oh my.

I assume so, though I can't prove it as I have yet to play with one of these animals myself.  It would be downright ridiculous if Apple's own software didn't take full advantage of Apple's own hardware, wouldn't it?

-Noel

[NPuter]

I actually own a retina macbook pro.

All retina optimized apps utilize the full resolution of the retina display. Almost all apple apps have been retina optimized at this point. Although, retina apps will appear to be the same size as a if being run on a screen running at 1440x900 (when the scaling option is set to that). However, more pixels are making up each element on the display making them extremely sharp. Apps that are not retina optimized are scaled to fit the massive resolution, making everyting noticeably blurry. I have an external 1680x1050 display. There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between viewing pictures on that and viewing pictures on a retina compatable app on my macbook pro. I was stunned to see the amount of detail that I could see in my photos. It is truely amazing. However, opening those pictures in a non-retina app yeilds a blurry image.

In short:

*retina compatable apps are utilizing the FULL resolution of the retina dispaly even though they appear to be the same physical size as if they were being displayed on a 1440x900 monitor.

*non retina compatable apps are being upscaled to the fit the massive resolution of the display. This makes everything very blurry.

I own both a retina macbook pro and a 1440x900 macbook pro.

Placing the two next to each other, you notice that all the UI elements are the exact same physical size. However there is absolutely no comparison when it comes to sharpness.

[NPuter]

Here is an example for you guys.

Lightroom has not been optimized for the retina display - so whatever it displayes is upscaled to 1440x900. Preview is retina optimized, so everything it displays is at the native (full) resolution of the retina display.

Look at the difference! (Lightroom 4 on left, preview on right) Lightroom is virtually unusable...

(Huge image, so I did not embed)

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6533919/Screen%20Shot%202012-07-14%20at%209.23.27%20PM.png

Right click, click coppy link location, open new tab, and paste link into address bar.