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Pete_Myers
Pete_Myers
Known Participant
October 12, 2010
Question

PS CS5 10-bit video under Open GL on Mac OS??

  • October 12, 2010
  • 11 replies
  • 51765 views

Dear Adobe:

I have been working with the engineers at Eizo for the past year in trying to get the Eizo CG 243w monitor to work at 10-bits per color plane via mini displayport to displayport connection while using the 4870 graphics card on a Mac Pro.

Eizo re-wrote the firmware for the CG 243w to be compatible with the mini displayport standard released by Apple. As of this past summer, the CG 243w now interconnects with the 4870 graphics card to the monitor, while hosted on a Mac Pro under 10.6.

BUT in using Adobe's on test image, it is obvious that the display is still not working at 10-bits per color plane, as banding is showing.

Would you please clearly state whether Adobe Photoshop CS5 in the current version is capable of driving the 4870 graphics card and displaying 10-bits per color plane images using the MacPro and current OS? We need to know where the bottleneck is coming from---Adobe, Apple, AMD.

It is frustrating that Windows users have successfully been able to use Photoshop CS5 with a handful of different graphics cards and a large number of Eizo 10-bit monitors for a long time and it still appears that Mac users, known for being graphic intensive, cannot. We really need help getting to the bottom of this. Adobe Labs might be cranking out some fun new product, but functionality of a key issue for Photoshop would seem to be higher priority---and 10-bits per color plane seems like it would be one such issue.

cheers,

Pete

    This topic has been closed for replies.

    11 replies

    B
    Barry Rudick
    Inspiring
    September 19, 2011

    Interesting test.

    Create 32 bit new file. Drag gradient. Change mode to 16 bit using "Exposure, Gamma" default, add 0.5 monochromatic, gaussian noise and no banding.

    This is very similar to how Live Picture rendered the built-out tiffs. All files rendered had 0.5% noise added. Similar to the 16 bit to 8 bit mode change in Photoshop.

    TheDigitalDog
    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    September 19, 2011

    Barry, none of this solves the big issue and questions in the posts; a full high bit path for all images in Photoshop (and hopefully other products like Lightroom). What appears to be the issue is Apple needing to further support something in the path. We have high bit panels. That’s helpful but not the same as having an entire high bit path. We have high bit cards (presumably the drivers are the issues or something to do with Apple, that isn’t clear to me). We have applications that can access the data (not the same as a high bit file support although that’s necessary too). The ramp.psd file supplied is one that attempts to empirically prove when the entire path is high bit due to no visible banding.

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
    B
    Barry Rudick
    Inspiring
    September 19, 2011

    Andrew wrote:

    "That’s the banding!"

    I see. If I make a black to white gradient I see no banding. Is that different than the ramp.psd? I guess so but I can not explain the diff.

    B
    Barry Rudick
    Inspiring
    September 19, 2011

    Correction:

    Dragging the gradient tool past the edge of the window shows definite banding. I would guess that the monitor profile throws some bits out?

    B
    Barry Rudick
    Inspiring
    September 19, 2011

    Opened the file "ramp.psd" and see the individual "bars" of different densities but I do not believe I see banding.

    The file appears to be bands of different neutral densities.

    TheDigitalDog
    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    September 19, 2011

    Barry Rudick wrote:

    Opened the file "ramp.psd" and see the individual "bars" of different densities but I do not believe I see banding.

    That’s the banding! And I see it too on the SpectraView II using all the setup steps you describe. So no, while the NEC Wide Gamut LCD monitors holds a 10 bit LUT internally in the monitor You will see banding on a Mac until presumably Apple fixes the bottleneck here (some say drivers for specific video cards if I’m reading them correctly).

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
    B
    Barry Rudick
    Inspiring
    September 19, 2011

    Banding? are you using Spectraview II software? I will try that file on my system to confirm.

    Chris is correct that there is no way to create the 10-bit path at his time. The clean 8-bits from the monitor (NEC only with Spectraview software and puck) should give 255 levels per channel.

    The Spectraview software does alllow other devices to connect but I can not say if that is a factor.  We use the OEM X-rite puck with this setup.

    B
    Barry Rudick
    Inspiring
    August 24, 2011

    Just to add to the conversation. The NEC Wide Gamut LCD monitors holds a 10 bit LUT internally in the monitor to return a solid 8 bit video data to the video card. You will not see banding.

    This is only working as explained above if the Spectraview II software solution (NEC only) is used as the calibration software. It also requires DVI-D cable to the monitor for full  two-way comminication. The lower end NEC Wide Gamut LCD (i.e. P221W) has the 10 bit LUT enabled but other features such as ColorComp, etc. are not available. It may be connected with DVI-I, I believe.

    Cheers,

    Barry Rudick

    Aker Imaging

    TheDigitalDog
    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    September 18, 2011

    Just to add to the conversation. The NEC Wide Gamut LCD monitors holds a 10 bit LUT internally in the monitor to return a solid 8 bit video data to the video card. You will not see banding.

    I’ve got a NEC PA271W hooked up as I believe you describe and still see banding using the ‘test file’ provided here: http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/software/Pages/adobe-photoshop.aspx (ramp.psd).

    I’d sure like to know what the solution is, if any to use this file to prove (if it does indeed prove) I have a full 10-bit path.

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
    Chris Cox
    Chris Cox
    Legend
    September 18, 2011

    A 10 bit LUT does not mean a 10 bit display path. A 10 bit LUT just improves (slightly) the 8 bit display path if you had any gamma corrections applied in the display.

    And that is not relevant to the 10 bit display path being discussed in this topic -- which would require 10 bit/channel framebuffers in the video card and drivers (Apple's drivers being the missing component at this time).

    J
    Julian Vrieslander
    Inspiring
    August 19, 2011

    It seems like this thread is going stale.  If, as Chris Cox claims, Adobe has already implemented support for 10-bit video, then we should be badgering Apple to add the missing piece: 10-bit support in the driver. Post messages in the Apple user forums, call your local reps, button-hole the developers and managers at WWDC, file RADARs and feature requests, send emails to steve@apple.com, etc.  I hope that future submissions to this thread will be limited to reports of progress in getting Apple to support 10-bit tech, or tips on how to influence them to make this happen.

    A bit of perspective, at the risk of going off-topic.  I have a 10-bit capable monitor and I would love to use all 10-bits when running Photoshop.  But realistically, there are relatively few people who care about this feature, or need it.  I sometimes use 16-bit filters in PS, but have no current need for 32-bit.  Rather than devoting resources to such esoteric needs, I would rather see Adobe improving their software installers and online updaters. These systems are, and have been for a long time, an overly complex and buggy mess.  Everyone I know who uses Adobe products (even the free ones) curses the installers and updaters.

    Just one example: I had so many update nag dialogs from Acrobat (sometimes several per day, and for updates that I had already done) that I banished Acrobat from my hard disk.  I still get those nag dialogs, and I don't know how to kill them.

    Chris Cox
    Chris Cox
    Legend
    August 19, 2011

    It seems like this thread is going stale.  If, as Chris Cox claims, Adobe has already implemented support for 10-bit video, then we should be badgering Apple to add the missing piece: 10-bit support in the driver.

    Yes, that's what the topic has said for several months now.

    Pete_Myers
    Pete_MyersAuthor
    Known Participant
    March 8, 2011

    Chris, are we any closer to getting this issue resolved? It is critical for us advanced image-makers.Is there any indication that 10.7 will address 10-bit per color plane imaging? Certainly some one must have some insight into this issue!

    Pete Myers

    Santa Fe

    MarkDS
    MarkDS
    Inspiring
    March 8, 2011

    I too would love to have an answer to this question, but lots of luck trying to

    get anything useful out of Apple on what they intend. Even if they did enable it

    in 10.7, we would then encounter the issues of their wretched mini-DisplayPort

    technology which doesn't play well, at least with the NEC PA271W.

    Mark

    Pete_Myers
    Pete_MyersAuthor
    Known Participant
    March 8, 2011

    Hi Mark:

    It seems amazing that Windows guys have been running 10-bit for a year and a half, and Apple still cant get it together. I have been running on Apple since the Mac II and PS 2. This has been one of the damnest issues I have ever run into with Apple. I think its time for Adobe's senior management to weight in on it with Tim Cook.That is likely the only way past the dead-end.

    Pete

    H
    HEAD Productions
    Known Participant
    January 6, 2011

    NEC has started to ship a MiniDisplayPort to DisplayPort cable, part# PA-MDP-BNDL.

    Max_Ramuschi
    Max_Ramuschi
    Known Participant
    February 9, 2011

    I own a PNY Quadro 4000 and an Eizo 10-bit capable display CG243W. The card is officially capable to output 10 bit per channel under Mac (unlike new ATI cards which are not: ati 5770 and 5870 aren't capable of 10-bit output, only 4870 and the new ATI Firepro cards are...) and has a normal Display Port (no mini version).

    No 10-bit output anyway. I have latest drivers installed.

    I have a PC with the same display connected with an ATI Firepro v4800 and guess? 10-bit works great!

    Why on mac 10 bit isn't possible?

    I wrote to PNY about the problem but they didn't answer me yet.

    Chris Cox
    Chris Cox
    Legend
    February 9, 2011

    Why on mac 10 bit isn't possible?

    Because Apple has not enabled the driver code necessary to do so.   When we try to create a 10 bit/channel framebuffer, the Apple driver code returns an error.

    The card and display may be capable, but the driver plumbing is not yet present.

    H
    HEAD Productions
    Known Participant
    January 3, 2011

    Any new info on this issue?

    Mac Pro 5.1

    Mac OS 10.6.5

    ATI Radeon HD 5870

    Eizo CG234W

    NEC PA271W [coming in a few days!]

    Ps CS5

    MarkDS
    MarkDS
    Inspiring
    January 3, 2011

    Nothing from Apple - to my mind just stunning obtuseness and corporate

    arrogance.

    NEC has tested three cables/adapters that are suitable, but none available just

    yet. They should be soon and NEC said they would inform us.

    Mark

    Chris Cox
    Chris Cox
    Legend
    January 3, 2011

    No updates.  We're all waiting on Apple to make the changes to their driver code.

    MarkDS
    MarkDS
    Inspiring
    October 23, 2010

    I can confirm in no uncertain terms that this problem goes beyond Eizo displays and remains unresolved, and it is not an Adobe problem. The NEC PA271W display DOES NOT work at 10-bit pixel depth on Snow Leopard period. It took me a lot of cajoling to get an Apple Senior Tech rep to admit to me that this is the case. NEC is well aware of it, and they told me as much when I first complained about this, along with the more critical problem that the display would not illuminate AT ALL when connected with an adpter casble I purchased from an Apple reseller here in Toronto. Apple have been on the whole obtuse and uncooperative in responding to any request for information about how and when they intend to resolve this problem of mini-DisplayPort to DisplayPort connectivity, caused largely by their failure to properly test whether their high-end computers can work with high-end displays, of which there are few enough on the market to have made testing the bunch of them entirely feasible. After spending so much monery on this equipment, the display of corporate irresponsibility is infuriating. NEC at least have been responsive. They have posted a notice on their website describing the issues and they are now having that Mionoprice adpater tested at their headquarters in Japan. They kindly sent me one of those adapters because they had heard second-hand that they work, but I shall install it only after either Apple or NEC confirms it is safe to do so, because I do not wish to risk causing electrical damage to the video card, the processors or the display without the full backing of the manufacturers. These firms need to take ownership of and responsibility for this issue. NEC is responding reasonably well, whereas I have yet to see any tangible evidence that Apple really cares about it.

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