Known Participant

Question

PS CS5 10-bit video under Open GL on Mac OS??

Forum|Forum|15 years ago
October 12, 2010
11 replies
51765 views

Dear Adobe:

I have been working with the engineers at Eizo for the past year in trying to get the Eizo CG 243w monitor to work at 10-bits per color plane via mini displayport to displayport connection while using the 4870 graphics card on a Mac Pro.

Eizo re-wrote the firmware for the CG 243w to be compatible with the mini displayport standard released by Apple. As of this past summer, the CG 243w now interconnects with the 4870 graphics card to the monitor, while hosted on a Mac Pro under 10.6.

BUT in using Adobe's on test image, it is obvious that the display is still not working at 10-bits per color plane, as banding is showing.

Would you please clearly state whether Adobe Photoshop CS5 in the current version is capable of driving the 4870 graphics card and displaying 10-bits per color plane images using the MacPro and current OS? We need to know where the bottleneck is coming from---Adobe, Apple, AMD.

It is frustrating that Windows users have successfully been able to use Photoshop CS5 with a handful of different graphics cards and a large number of Eizo 10-bit monitors for a long time and it still appears that Mac users, known for being graphic intensive, cannot. We really need help getting to the bottom of this. Adobe Labs might be cranking out some fun new product, but functionality of a key issue for Photoshop would seem to be higher priority---and 10-bits per color plane seems like it would be one such issue.

cheers,

Pete

This topic has been closed for replies.

B

Barry Rudick

Inspiring

Interesting test.

Create 32 bit new file. Drag gradient. Change mode to 16 bit using "Exposure, Gamma" default, add 0.5 monochromatic, gaussian noise and no banding.

This is very similar to how Live Picture rendered the built-out tiffs. All files rendered had 0.5% noise added. Similar to the 16 bit to 8 bit mode change in Photoshop.

W

warzenbeisser

Participating Frequently

Banding in 8-bit rendering is most obvious if the gradient is soft enough for the threshold from one tonal level to the next to stretch across several pixels because you then get those bands of pixels with identical values and an abrupt edge at the threshold. Of course, you can cover up banding with dithering or by adding noise. But that is not the point of the ramp.psd test picture cited earlier or having 10-bit video. 10-bit video can help you tell apart banding inherent in an image file from banding that is just introduced due to limiting output to 8 bits per channel (or less, as in a profiled monitor where tonal steps may be lost unless a higher bit-depth LUT is available and accessible for hardware calibration of the monitor).

TheDigitalDog

Inspiring

The reason why I suspect so many want a full 10-bit path on wide gamut displays dates back to a 2004 post by Karl Lang, the fellow who designed PressView and Sony Artisan.

1) A wide gamut LCD display is not a good thing for most (95%) of high
end users. The data that leaves your graphic card and travels over the
DVI cable is 8 bit per component. You can't change this. The OS, ICC
CMMs, the graphic card, the DVI spec, and Photoshop will all have to be
upgraded before this will change and that's going to take a while. What
does this mean to you? It means that when you send RGB data to a wide
gamut display the colorimetric distance between any two colors is much
larger. As an example, lets say you have two adjacent color patches one
is 230,240,200 and the patch next to it is 230,241,200. On a standard
LCD or CRT those two colors may be around .8 Delta E apart. On an Adobe
RGB display those colors might be 2 Delta E apart on an ECI RGB display
this could be as high as 4 delta E.
It's very nice to be able to display all kinds of saturated colors you
may never use in your photographs, however if the smallest visible
adjustment you can make to a skin tone is 4 delta E you will become
very frustrated very quickly.
2) More bits in the display does not fix this problem. 10 bit LUTs, 14
Bit 3D LUTs, 10 bit column drivers, time-domain bits, none of these
technologies will solve problem 1. Until the path from photoshop to the
pixel is at least 10 bits the whole way, I advise sticking to a display
with something close to ColorMatch or sRGB.
3) Unless the display has "TRUE 10 bit or greater 1D LUTs that are
8-10-10" user front panel controls for color temp, blacklevel and gamma
are useless for calibration and can in fact make things worse. An
8-10-8 3D LUT will not hurt things and can help achieve a fixed
contrast ratio which is a good thing.
Only Mitsubishi/NEC displays with "GammaComp" have 8-10-8 3D LUTs at
this time. Some Samsung displays may have this I don't test many of
their panels as the performance in other areas has been lacking.
Only the Eizo 210, 220 and NEC2180WG have 8-10-10 paths. If you really
want to know... the path in the Eizo is "8-14bit3D-8-10bit1D-10" go
figure that one out ;-) The 2180WG has an actual 10 bit DVI interface
with a 10-10-10 path but nothing supports it so you can't use it yet -
but for $6500 your ready when it does ;-)

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

B

Barry Rudick

Inspiring

Andrew wrote:

"That’s the banding!"

I see. If I make a black to white gradient I see no banding. Is that different than the ramp.psd? I guess so but I can not explain the diff.

B

Barry Rudick

Inspiring

Correction:

Dragging the gradient tool past the edge of the window shows definite banding. I would guess that the monitor profile throws some bits out?

B

Barry Rudick

Inspiring

Opened the file "ramp.psd" and see the individual "bars" of different densities but I do not believe I see banding.

The file appears to be bands of different neutral densities.

W

warzenbeisser

Participating Frequently

Well, those “bars" are what is referred to as banding here.

The bars show that only 256 levels are displayed while the 16-bit file actually has a multiple of that. You can verify this by moving in the minimum and maximum slider in the Photoshop curves so that you get a much steeper linear gradient (say, from in 32/out 0 to in 159/out 255). Then you will notice that the bars shrink in width (half as wide in the numerical example above) but the tonal difference between adjacent bars does not increase. In an 8-bit file the bars would stay the same width as before, and the tonal difference would become more apparent.

If you had true 10-bit output on your display, the bars would still be there, but only at a quarter of the width, and the tonal difference between them would be only a quarter of what you see now and thus hardly perceivable to the human eye.

B

Barry Rudick

Inspiring

Banding? are you using Spectraview II software? I will try that file on my system to confirm.

Chris is correct that there is no way to create the 10-bit path at his time. The clean 8-bits from the monitor (NEC only with Spectraview software and puck) should give 255 levels per channel.

The Spectraview software does alllow other devices to connect but I can not say if that is a factor. We use the OEM X-rite puck with this setup.

B

Barry Rudick

Inspiring

Just to add to the conversation. The NEC Wide Gamut LCD monitors holds a 10 bit LUT internally in the monitor to return a solid 8 bit video data to the video card. You will not see banding.

This is only working as explained above if the Spectraview II software solution (NEC only) is used as the calibration software. It also requires DVI-D cable to the monitor for full two-way comminication. The lower end NEC Wide Gamut LCD (i.e. P221W) has the 10 bit LUT enabled but other features such as ColorComp, etc. are not available. It may be connected with DVI-I, I believe.

Cheers,

Barry Rudick

Aker Imaging

TheDigitalDog

Inspiring

Just to add to the conversation. The NEC Wide Gamut LCD monitors holds a 10 bit LUT internally in the monitor to return a solid 8 bit video data to the video card. You will not see banding.

I’ve got a NEC PA271W hooked up as I believe you describe and still see banding using the ‘test file’ provided here: http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/software/Pages/adobe-photoshop.aspx (ramp.psd).

I’d sure like to know what the solution is, if any to use this file to prove (if it does indeed prove) I have a full 10-bit path.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Chris Cox

Legend

A 10 bit LUT does not mean a 10 bit display path. A 10 bit LUT just improves (slightly) the 8 bit display path if you had any gamma corrections applied in the display.

And that is not relevant to the 10 bit display path being discussed in this topic -- which would require 10 bit/channel framebuffers in the video card and drivers (Apple's drivers being the missing component at this time).

J

Julian Vrieslander

Inspiring

It seems like this thread is going stale. If, as Chris Cox claims, Adobe has already implemented support for 10-bit video, then we should be badgering Apple to add the missing piece: 10-bit support in the driver. Post messages in the Apple user forums, call your local reps, button-hole the developers and managers at WWDC, file RADARs and feature requests, send emails to steve@apple.com, etc. I hope that future submissions to this thread will be limited to reports of progress in getting Apple to support 10-bit tech, or tips on how to influence them to make this happen.

A bit of perspective, at the risk of going off-topic. I have a 10-bit capable monitor and I would love to use all 10-bits when running Photoshop. But realistically, there are relatively few people who care about this feature, or need it. I sometimes use 16-bit filters in PS, but have no current need for 32-bit. Rather than devoting resources to such esoteric needs, I would rather see Adobe improving their software installers and online updaters. These systems are, and have been for a long time, an overly complex and buggy mess. Everyone I know who uses Adobe products (even the free ones) curses the installers and updaters.

Just one example: I had so many update nag dialogs from Acrobat (sometimes several per day, and for updates that I had already done) that I banished Acrobat from my hard disk. I still get those nag dialogs, and I don't know how to kill them.

Chris Cox

Legend

It seems like this thread is going stale. If, as Chris Cox claims, Adobe has already implemented support for 10-bit video, then we should be badgering Apple to add the missing piece: 10-bit support in the driver.

Yes, that's what the topic has said for several months now.

Pete_MyersAuthor

Known Participant

Chris, are we any closer to getting this issue resolved? It is critical for us advanced image-makers.Is there any indication that 10.7 will address 10-bit per color plane imaging? Certainly some one must have some insight into this issue!

Pete Myers

Santa Fe

MarkDS

Inspiring

I too would love to have an answer to this question, but lots of luck trying to

get anything useful out of Apple on what they intend. Even if they did enable it

in 10.7, we would then encounter the issues of their wretched mini-DisplayPort

technology which doesn't play well, at least with the NEC PA271W.

Mark

Pete_MyersAuthor

Known Participant

Hi Mark:

It seems amazing that Windows guys have been running 10-bit for a year and a half, and Apple still cant get it together. I have been running on Apple since the Mac II and PS 2. This has been one of the damnest issues I have ever run into with Apple. I think its time for Adobe's senior management to weight in on it with Tim Cook.That is likely the only way past the dead-end.

Pete

H

HEAD Productions

Known Participant

NEC has started to ship a MiniDisplayPort to DisplayPort cable, part# PA-MDP-BNDL.

Max_Ramuschi

Known Participant

I own a PNY Quadro 4000 and an Eizo 10-bit capable display CG243W. The card is officially capable to output 10 bit per channel under Mac (unlike new ATI cards which are not: ati 5770 and 5870 aren't capable of 10-bit output, only 4870 and the new ATI Firepro cards are...) and has a normal Display Port (no mini version).

No 10-bit output anyway. I have latest drivers installed.

I have a PC with the same display connected with an ATI Firepro v4800 and guess? 10-bit works great!

Why on mac 10 bit isn't possible?

I wrote to PNY about the problem but they didn't answer me yet.

Chris Cox

Legend

Why on mac 10 bit isn't possible?

Because Apple has not enabled the driver code necessary to do so. When we try to create a 10 bit/channel framebuffer, the Apple driver code returns an error.

The card and display may be capable, but the driver plumbing is not yet present.

H

HEAD Productions

Known Participant

Any new info on this issue?

Mac Pro 5.1

Mac OS 10.6.5

ATI Radeon HD 5870

Eizo CG234W

NEC PA271W [coming in a few days!]

Ps CS5

MarkDS

Inspiring

Nothing from Apple - to my mind just stunning obtuseness and corporate

arrogance.

NEC has tested three cables/adapters that are suitable, but none available just

yet. They should be soon and NEC said they would inform us.

Mark

Chris Cox

Legend

No updates. We're all waiting on Apple to make the changes to their driver code.

MarkDS

Inspiring

I can confirm in no uncertain terms that this problem goes beyond Eizo displays and remains unresolved, and it is not an Adobe problem. The NEC PA271W display DOES NOT work at 10-bit pixel depth on Snow Leopard period. It took me a lot of cajoling to get an Apple Senior Tech rep to admit to me that this is the case. NEC is well aware of it, and they told me as much when I first complained about this, along with the more critical problem that the display would not illuminate AT ALL when connected with an adpter casble I purchased from an Apple reseller here in Toronto. Apple have been on the whole obtuse and uncooperative in responding to any request for information about how and when they intend to resolve this problem of mini-DisplayPort to DisplayPort connectivity, caused largely by their failure to properly test whether their high-end computers can work with high-end displays, of which there are few enough on the market to have made testing the bunch of them entirely feasible. After spending so much monery on this equipment, the display of corporate irresponsibility is infuriating. NEC at least have been responsive. They have posted a notice on their website describing the issues and they are now having that Mionoprice adpater tested at their headquarters in Japan. They kindly sent me one of those adapters because they had heard second-hand that they work, but I shall install it only after either Apple or NEC confirms it is safe to do so, because I do not wish to risk causing electrical damage to the video card, the processors or the display without the full backing of the manufacturers. These firms need to take ownership of and responsibility for this issue. NEC is responding reasonably well, whereas I have yet to see any tangible evidence that Apple really cares about it.

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