P: Support for native full-screen mode on macOS

Report · Jul 21, 2011

I must say that full screen apps is a wonderful idea. I can start in such a way some of the apple apps (safari, imail, numbers) - I like switching between them. It will be desirable to enable this option for Ligtroom & Photoshop (both CS and Elements) to behave in similar way under new Mission Control stuff...

Report · Apr 04, 2012

Since you aren't a software developer, and I am, I can tell you that this is actually not an "easy" needle to thread.

Lion /significantly/ changed certain pane/window interactions such that handling the requests for various screen resizes across mutliple monitors, virtual screens, various sleep modes, etc, is, to put it plainly, a nightmarish mess.

Apple has release several tweaks to the core display and window server stuff in the Lion timeframe to address some of these problems.

Software development is not just about fixing some obvious defect, but about managing how that fix changes all affected components across all supported configurations.

There will have to be a significant amount of rewrite and retest to fully support these new APIs to the level Adobe users expect. Rewriting is tricky, because you don't want to re-introduce old bugs, or introduce new ones, and yet you still have to make the new stuff work right. Consider for a moment that this is not an easy task, and one that takes time and planning to get right.

I'm afraid that, unless you have this background, you are not in the best position to assess the whole story. This is not a criticism, but a statement of fact.

Report · Apr 04, 2012

@Gaerraty: I'm not complaining that we have them! :)

Basically what I was trying to say is that they are not essential. And they are not even that good. This is a professional program that is for professional users. I dare say most of us will use these features for tinkering, but not for real work because if we make money with video or 3D, we will be using dedicated video or 3D software (I use Modo for 3D and FCPX for video)...

All I am saying is that in my eyes, the development time would have been better spent on features that benefit the core users on an everyday basis.

Report · Apr 04, 2012

Finished?

Tone curve bug.
Unexplained slowdowns on some systems.
Slow web rendering.
Slow 5DIII response.
Auto CA improvements.
Auto tone makes big exposure errors.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Report · Apr 04, 2012

I am also a software developer and I concur with John. This is not as trivial as it sounds. In addition to the technical issues described above, they have to consider how this affects all their users, how it might limit their ability to introduce other features, how it makes the Mac and Windows versions diverge, etc.

We're all asking for this feature because we want it, so Adobe should give it the proper priority, but let's not trivialize the effort.

Report · Apr 05, 2012

Considering Adobe purchased Macromedia the competition I find their approach very similar to a dictatorship, I'm surprised the European Union hasn't investetgated them. Our way or the highway isn't good enough, full screen mode is a standard OSX feature, please support it!

Report · Apr 11, 2012

You are completely right. But I also don't think this is acceptable excuse for the biggest software development companies in the world. Sometimes companies get into sticky situations because of backwards compatibility - but we also see again and again from some of these companies that if there is enough will, anything is possible.

I'm just hoping that Adobe is still one of those companies that puts users above their convenience.

Report · Apr 19, 2012

In Apple's Full-Screen mode, the menu bar re-appears when you put your cursor at the top of the screen, pause, then push up again.

Report · Apr 19, 2012

Yes, Dreamweaver and Mission Control is a mess. I Tab-Switch to Dreamweaver, and I am not taken to the Desktop Dreamweaver is supposed to be on. When I switch manually, I have to click somewhere or do something with the program to get my floating Files menu to appear. Very poor, indeed. (Maybe Steve Jobs was right, what he said about Adobe.)

Report · Apr 19, 2012

Jeffrey, I am a long-time user; since about 1992. Please! This long-time user is BEGGING you to implement ALL of Apple's system-wide features. They are the reason I love a Mac...(except they don't seem to matter when using Adobe programs BECAUSE THEY JUST AREN'T THERE!

Report · Apr 19, 2012

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Report · Apr 19, 2012

I wish Adobe would support ALL of OS X's features. There seems to be only three possible reasons why they refuse to:

1) Expense.

2) Some decree from on high many years ago not to deviate one iota between the Mac and PC versions and everyone at Adobe has either bought into this mentality, or they are scared to challenge the decrier.

3) What Steve Jobs said about Adobe, which I will not repeat here, but we all know what it is.

Report · Apr 19, 2012

4) Or because many of the recent MacOS offerings are more limited than the functionality that already exists in Photoshop, or have serious shortcomings that need to be addressed before we can use them in a professional application. (hint: this is the correct answer)

Report · Apr 19, 2012

Chris, I don't think you are listening to your customers. I have read a lot of comments above from your customers begging for you guys to implement Full-Screen app and other Apple innovations; but all I hear from Adobe, except from one employee (apparently on another post because i don't see it above) is defensive posturing and complaining that your customers requesting these things are apparently not your "professional" base because we don't know anything and our requests are unreasonable You truly make us feel wanted and appreciated, not! I truly wish there were another photo editing software as good as Photoshop that adhered to Mac standards, because I would jump ship.

Report · Apr 19, 2012

We are listening, or we wouldn't have responded by telling you why it didn't make sense for Photoshop. We are listening, or we wouldn't have spent time implementing most of the feature requests on the forum. But not everything that people request is a good idea, and sometimes there are technical issues that the end user doesn't see (like when we have to wait for an OS vendor to fix bugs or design mistakes that prevent features from being used).

You've made your request, and we heard it (hyperbole and all).

Report · Apr 20, 2012

As someone who uses Mac as well as Windows, I'm lukewarm about full screen apps. I like them on the laptop with one or two simple apps, but in general I think they're just an interesting experiment. For every customer "begging" Adobe to implement them, I'll bet there are at least as many who couldn't care less - and who would certainly prefer resources to be allocated to features with real benefit to the entire user base.

Report · Apr 20, 2012

As someone who also uses Mac and Windows daily, I am not even lukewarm about a full-screen app. Many of the fervent posters seemingly take an attitude that all users are demanding this- they are not.

Mac is 8% of the OS makeup by an average of the 'authoritative' polling organizations. Mac has a larger share of photographers to be sure but even if density was 50% which my experience tells me is generous it wouldn't be enough. Then you would need to take out all the Macs not running Lion, then all the people who are running Lion but not using or not caring about full-screen apps.

Meaningless example: In terms of shear numbers on this forum, the Linux support request has gotten more backing.

I think engineering time could be better spent on making the application better for all users-rather than a minor augmentation for a segment of one platform.

Report · Apr 20, 2012

John ... and how many of the "couldn't care less" crowd are even aware that a full-screen mode even exists or have ever tried it? Ignorance is bliss I guess.

"who would certainly prefer resources to be allocated to features with real benefit to the entire user base."

You mean like it took two attempts for Adobe to code PS to run natively on intel Macs? How many resources were tied up in that double dip that could have been devoted to new/improved feature development? But I'm sure that was all Apple's fault as well ... I know when I have a situation with one of my customers, they NEVER want to hear excuses ... they want results ... that is what they are paying me for. For example, don't market that an app offers tethered shooting only to blame the camera maker or the OS because it doesn't work and then feel innocent of the shortfall ...

While I think Adobe has done a fair job over the years to the point of being responsive to users input on the direction of software development ... there has also been some very troubling and disconcerting behavior recently as well that raises doubts as to what the future may hold.

Tethering is troubling for them so they blame the camera makers and/or the individual OS developers ... they introduce half developed features and expect everyone to accept a one-size-fits-all offering ... they ignore what can be important and valuable features for two or three versions completely ... not to mention the fact TH shared there were 300,000 participants in the Lr 4 beta ... why such a number of problems with the final release? I'm sure that the blame will be placed elsewhere ...

This all can raise doubts about what is going on behind the scenes at Adobe and all these seemingly insignificant details can add up over time and erode user confidence and customer loyalty ...

Report · Apr 20, 2012

Rikk ... while the numbers for this request may be insignificant in your view, the use of Lion and it's successors will increase over time, not decrease ... Whatever happened to Adobe being on the leading edge instead of taking on the role of a follower? The comparison of this request which is less than a year old to the request of Linux support which is decades old, is a bit of a leap to bolster your viewpoint.

Unfortunately, Adobe has chosen your recommendations to an extent ... compare the feature set for slideshows and books in Aperture 3 ... don't you think Lightroom users would appreciate and benefit from similar capabilities? Alas, Adobe has ignored such development. So what we are experiencing is not likely a shortage of, or mis-directed resource allocations for niche users ... it looks more like indifference ...

Report · Apr 20, 2012

Rikk, I really don't understand your urge to proclaim your indifference here. I think both arguing for and against the topic can be very constructive, but saying it is unimportant really does't get anyone anywhere. Feel free to ignore this thread.

Mac is a minority. Generally that is true. Mac has a larger share of photographers, most definitely. And 50%? You have your experience - I can share mine. From all the professional photographers, graphic designers and illustrators I know not a single one uses Windows as their primary machine. This is *my* experience. I also know 3D artists who use photoshop and they use windows. So there is some Win users, but within my area (London) this number is very low.

I think Adobe should also think ahead a little. Not all Apple computers are running Lion at the moment. But they will eventually. And many many people who have windows computers will be running Lion soon because they are just about to upgrade. If you look at the next generation of designers and photographers - the people who are studying now - how many are using a macbook? Again I can only share my own personal point of view, but from the three major universities in London I have access to I dare say an *absolute* majority.

Numbers and statistics are very tricky. They can be so deceiving. So what I would like to see from Adobe is an honest response that includes both numbers and their analysis and rationale. (Yeah thats never gonna happen - I realise that.) If we are such a minority please tell us so. I will understand. But what I see at the moment from their side just feels like arrogance and indifference.

Anyways - in a totally friendly and not-hostile-at-all manner - what do you think should they concentrate on? I personally would love to see a deeper (not necessarily total) unification of shortcuts across all of Creative Suite.

//Kind of an afterthought - there are so many things that I want more then fullscreen. I was really hopeful when Superstition came out, but so underwhelmed in the end. And I actually think the lack of fullscreen was a last straw. "They still didn't fix A,B,C,D,E... and they didn't even add fullscreen. Bah!" Essentially my problem is not with the lack of fullscreen but with unwillingness or inability to walk towards the user. They build from top down, adding to features that occasionally, sometimes can save you 10 minutes of work. But if they took time to consolidate, and really optimised the usability (and not just for a long time Photoshop user) I would save so much more time. Every day. And I wouldn't feel like I am being robbed of my money every time there is an upgrade...

Report · Apr 20, 2012

Not to mention that Adobe relishes in the fact they can tout that the majority of Apple owners use Lightroom over Aperture ....

Report · Apr 20, 2012

So Butch, would you put full screen mode ahead of having any individual one of those shortfalls brought up to our satisfaction? Even if these core features, and slideshow too, were significantly closer to what we might want, I would still find it very hard to put something as platform-limited and IMO trivial as full screen even on the bottom of a "nice to have" list.

Report · Apr 20, 2012

I think this really boils down to thinking that supporting a platform in its entirety is either trivial or essential. I think that the new features that Lion is presenting are really amazing and, in a typical Apple way, are making slow and steady progress involving real change and new useful paradigms in UI. Adobe refuses to cooperate because they have their own ideas. I guess I can't blame them - they did achieve a lot and their work is, overall, impressive. Understanding doesn't equal agreeing though, and in my eyes they are setting themselves up for a failure.

Report · Apr 20, 2012

@artur. I never said unimportant. I said as a Mac and Windows user I wasn't 'even lukewarm'. It is important to for Adobe to know and Users to state when they think a niche feature is receiving disproportionate attention at the expense of fixes and augments which benefit the whole of Lightroom users.

I teach hundreds of people a year in Lightroom. I can tell you that I count the logos on the back of the laptops and 50% is generous. In last Tuesday's class 14 PCs 3 Macs. Sometimes it is 50-50 but seldom does Mac exceed the PC crowd. I can also tell you from my one-on-one with individual photographers and my consulting work with larger workflow studios that Notebook sized machines are much rarer as a production level tool than desktop-based computers. In those professional work environments where I consult, screen real estate is not at a premium.

As to your question: What do I think they should concentrate on?
Hmm... Let's see
1. Making all metadata filterable
2. Robust keywording improvements including merging
3. Relative Presets
4. Slideshow needs major work
5. Expanding Publish Services into Web-Module-based Galleries
6. Eraser for the Gradient tool
7. Cropping using the Layout overlay
8. Crop Presets
9. Robust Text handling in Print, Slideshow and Web
10. Second screen augments to include Develop module and tool palettes
11. Different shapes for brushes and spot removal
12. Live view in tethering
13. Smarter stacking for HDR, Pano, Focus Sets, Time lapse,

Just off the top of my head I would trade any one of those features a Full-screen Mac App view. I have no ax to grind with Mac, their users, or their feature sets. I use a Mac everyday (on a Macbook) and I seldom even take LR to full-screen via the [F] key.

Above all, I want a program that speeds and improves the workflow of all users-not just a select few. That is they way I feel resources should be allocated.

Report · Apr 20, 2012

John,

Not necessarily ... I'm just getting tired or hearing all the excuses as to why we can't have something ... and folks finding fault with requests about "wasting" resources ...

I mean c'mon ... look at the past year or so ... Adobe lays off 700 employees ... adopts a "you MUST upgrade EVERY version" policy or pay full price ... then adds a Blurb only book feature to Lr ... then drops the price significantly ... why?

I'm all for saving money, but if resources are indeed so drastically limited that so many folks feel the need to lobby against "insignificant" feature requests in order to protect their interests ... I don't get it.

I would have been very willing to upgrade to Lr4 ... and pay the full traditional price ... but as it stands, I am having great difficulty finding enough reason to upgrade ... because unlike prior versions, there isn't much there to significantly improve my workflow. Sure the Develop module is "better" ... but not enough that I would consider Lr 3.6 to be a dog or so inferior as to be a detriment to my livelihood ...

Issues like the comments in this thread are not making great strides in my confidence that Adobe has my best interests at heart ... nor does it raise my hopes for what lies ahead ...

Report · Apr 20, 2012

@Deleted User: Ok, I will not argue with you about distribution of macs because our experiences clearly vary (which is not at all surprising!) and I think it will lead nowhere.

I understand your point, but I still feel it makes a lot more sense participating in the relevant discussions concerning the appropriate points you have just named (so of which I would expend as much energy trying to push for as I do for this) rather then talking down other discussions.

In the end, this is your point of view and hopefully Adobe have a more objective point of view. We are trying to help them by these comments, are we not?Hopefully they are tracking all of these requests and making notes and that is the basis for future improvements. Surely 100 people saying what they *like* is more valuable then 50 people saying what they like and other 50 people saying *i don't like that*.

If this is not your thing, let it be and push for your own thoughts and ideas.

P: Support for native full-screen mode on macOS

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