Delivering in 29.97, working with 23.976 footage

[DanRourke]

Hi.  I have seen countless posts on forums and on Google regarding mixing framerates in Premiere Pro which is really handy, but no one seems to have the same scenario that I have - or at least I have not found it.  I have to deliver a series to a broadcaster and it is being shot in 23.976.  I need to deliver in 29.97.  At first I was going to cut in 23.976 and do the math so that my commercial breaks and overall length will be correct once converted to 29.97 in the online phase.  But I noticed that if you cut 23.976 footage in a 29.97 timeline, it seems to convert the footage correctly, adding pulldown.  I took 00:07:29:00 of a short promo that I did in 23.976 from one sequence and copied into a new 29.97 sequence.  The duration changed to 00:07:29:14, telling my that the pulldown was added.

Is this the correct way of working with 23.976 footage to deliver in 29.97 for broadcast?

I am using Premiere Pro CC 2015.

Dan

[R Neil Haugen]

Great question ... I've seen this argued both ways, keep it native through all editing and just export to the other f-r, and as you did it, edit on a sequence set for output f-r. One of the things that was noted in one thread I remember, is that when needing to have EXACT timing for commercial breaks & such, editing on a modified f-r timeline allows one to check and remove a frame or three or four to keep timing dead-on. But ... I've not dealt with this personally.

Maybe shooternz​ or Dave Merchant​ might opine on this ...

Neil

[shooternz]

Sorry...not me.  I am in PAL Land ( thankfully)

[Jim_Simon]

I've never had to do this, but I think my preference would be to edit in a sequence matching my delivery, rather than my footage.

If nothing else, that would allow me to see any missteps in conversion without waiting for an export.

[DanRourke]

Thanks, Jim.  It is my preference as well.  I just wonder about the reliability of the conversion being done correctly.  It seems to be a little too easy to just cut 23.976 in a 29.97 timeline and have it work.  I have edited with Final Cut and Avid as well and you can't just do that.  But if Premiere figured out how to make that work, then Yay Adobe!

[R Neil Haugen]

I'll be at their booth in a bit here at NAB ... I'll run it by one of the folks there.

Neil

[DanRourke]

Wow.  Yeah, that would be great!  Thanks, Neil.

Dan

[R Neil Haugen]

Talked with Wes Howell, head of the user experience section ... his recommendation is to edit in the original or perhaps a 24p timeline, then when done, take it into AfterEffects, and do an export to 29.97/30 with a 3:2 pull-down.

A few more steps, but they don't take long he said, with the benefits ... easy to re-visit/re-edit, fewer artifacts, and the 3:2 export is "intelligent" meaning that it sorts out where to put an additional frame in such a way so that the feel of the original media's frame-rate is kept.

Neil

[chrisw44157881]

a few thoughts, I don't think 29.97i is bad per say, because you can reverse pulldown for easy editing in 23.976 timeline whenever you want. the only real benefit I see is perhaps having a version ready for youtube or something like that and future editing as that will cause broken cadences if you forget to reverse pulldown. (emphasis on 'forget'). The downside is that its not ready for SD or HDTV or laying to tape.

As for the 'feel' of the pulldown, I honestly haven't compared the actual cadence pulldown type. WWSSW to whatever premiere uses, but its definitely not something like 2:2:2:4 or Advanced PA 2:3:2:3 2:3:3:2. as those are majorly judder looking. AE does have a "guess" pulldown feature so if someone feels like chiming in with what Premiere does to your stuff, it might be helpful in matching future workflows.

[DanRourke]

Yeah..  I don't think that will work into our workflow.  I would rather not play in After Effects.  My edit's clips need to stay separate going into the online phase so that tweaks can be made easily.  The experience I have had in the past, even though changes have no business happening once a show is picture-locked, is that changes may need to happen.  I need the flexibility of not having a mixed down edit.  Audio and picture are being done separately as well.

The Online production house can do the conversion with AVID, which is what they will use for the final Output.

Thinking about my first question, though, because it would save a lot of time and hassle.  It would SEEM that the pulldown is working correctly if cutting 23.976 footage in a 29.97 timeline in Premiere.  I can only assume that it is being done correctly because you're supposed to be able to throw any framerate or resolution at Premiere in one timeline and it makes it work.  It would be nice to have confirmation from someone at Adobe, like Wes.  I am going to do a test and will post my findings here.

[R Neil Haugen]

Wes was quite clear you can work either way, he just thought the 3:2 pull-down in AE a touch more elegant, partly for the way it does to him a better job of blending the footage into the new f-r, but also because that way it's totally easy to modify your previous work. AE remembers that 'x' was a puul-down, and you can even go into AE and work the footage which will still be "native" there if you want and then do another export, according to Wes.

It was one of those conversations that expanded my IQ and knowledge of Things AE for about an hour ...

Neil

[DanRourke]

Ok.  Well it's good to know that either way will work.  I can certainly appreciate being able to easily modify the footage.  Thanks for getting this information, Neil.

Dan

[Jim_Simon]

It seems to be a little too easy

That's not an uncommon sentiment from folks switching to Premiere Pro from Avid and FCP.

[jvknowles · Accepted solution]

Hi Dan, I can relate our experience with the same situation and you can take from it what you will:

We shoot 23.976 for a show that broadcasts 29.97i. We cut in 29.97 from start to finish. That decision came from our Post Supervisor, and as she had the experience & wisdom from delivering many shows I put total faith in that decision. It also applied to our post sound and color grading -- we wanted everyone to be on the same page going through post. Visually it's the same, so I see no benefit in cutting at the native framerate especially when it might mess up your running time calculations.

Premiere Pro will apply the correct pulldown when you drop 23.976 footage into a 29.97 sequence, there's no problem there. It will tax your machine a bit more than native playback, but on our machines (new iMacs, Mac Pros, Macbook Pros) with Thunderbolt RAIDs there are no hiccups or dropped frames. The ONLY issue is if you have to deliver 29.97 INTERLACED (not progressive), which you probably do. You have to have your sequence set to interlaced (Upper Field) BEFORE you export your final. If you cut progressive and switch to interlacing only in the output then it will not have the correct cadence. We went through this with the network and had an episode kicked back by QC because of this.

HTH,

JVK

[DanRourke]

AHA!  Awesome!  Thanks, so much for your answer, JVK.  I had hoped to grab the attention of someone with the same scenario.  We are running new Mac Pros here too, so hopefully we will have the same experience you did.  Thanks too for the tip on interlacing.  I plan to set the sequence on UPPER from the start of our edits.

Dan

[eveb48935555]

Hi!

In regards to:

We shoot 23.976 for a show that broadcasts 29.97i. We cut in 29.97 from start to finish. That decision came from our Post Supervisor, and as she had the experience & wisdom from delivering many shows I put total faith in that decision. It also applied to our post sound and color grading -- we wanted everyone to be on the same page going through post. Visually it's the same, so I see no benefit in cutting at the native framerate especially when it might mess up your running time calculations.

Premiere Pro will apply the correct pulldown when you drop 23.976 footage into a 29.97 sequence, there's no problem there. It will tax your machine a bit more than native playback, but on our machines (new iMacs, Mac Pros, Macbook Pros) with Thunderbolt RAIDs there are no hiccups or dropped frames. The ONLY issue is if you have to deliver 29.97 INTERLACED (not progressive), which you probably do. You have to have your sequence set to interlaced (Upper Field) BEFORE you export your final. If you cut progressive and switch to interlacing only in the output then it will not have the correct cadence. We went through this with the network and had an episode kicked back by QC because of this.

I am following this workflow exactly - though my exports look very "interlacey" when I look at them on my computer. Is this normal and should I be unconcerned if they look okay on a broadcast monitor or should they be ok on both?

[jvknowles]

Yes, you will see interlacing on your computer that's normal. It's important that you get a monitoring setup that can display the interlaced signal properly to make sure it's working correctly. Something like a Blackmagic Mini Monitor out to an LCD TV (don't just use the HDMI port on your computer, it's not the same thing). The image should appear normal on the TV without any jittering or interlacing visible.

[kurashu]

I'm really late on this one but I really have to say, this is a bad idea. As a Post Supervisor myself I would recommend sticking to the framerate you shot until the end. Shooting and editing in 23.98fps and mastering your final file in 23.98fps. What you can do in the end is do a delivery using the master files to convert to 29.97fps. Working with converted files is just a layer of headaches that will not give a lot of benefit in the end. That's my 2 cents (experience of posting 6 movies per year and helping our distribution department deliver to Canadian, US and european clients, so 23.98fps, 29.97fps and 25fps). We ourselves use Premiere Pro to create the delivery files which are MXF files in 29.97fps Drop Frame with upper fields. Again, I highly recommend keeping the same framerate throughout the project (23.98fps being the best, or 25fps if you're in europe). Framerate conversion is a pain and it took our company a while to get it rolling for international deliveries through multiple clients and specs.

[dariap2345]

My documentary was completed and went through post, it's 23.976 1080p but the specifications for broadcast on Public TV are 1080p/29.97. I expect to return to post for this conversion and additional stuff, but i need to know before accepting the offer if this is going to work, and also if it will change the TRT significantly enough to affect the already completed Closed Captions and Audio Description.  Reading your advice, I did what you advised, shooting and editing and mastering  in 23.976.  It looks like you use PP to create the delivery files which are MXF files in 29.97fps Drop Frame with upper fields. I coldtry this or leave it my post guy. But can you comment on if the TRT time changes during this conversion, and if so-- would it change enough to screw up the CC and AD files sync?

Thanks

[therealpj]

I am literally going through this exact same scenario right now (hence why I found this thread), and based on what I've seen from others both in this thread and elsewhere, it seems like it's possible to do it right (though hard to QC until after it's been delivered to the broadcaster). I did find this editor on YouTube who actually suggests dropping the 23.98 footage into a 59.94 timeline and then exporting to 29.97 from there.

[therealpj]

(I forgot to include the link! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLsOMTWv_vw)

[DPowers]

There are several incorrect answers here. Putting 23.98 footage on a 29.97 WILL make the footage 29.97 but it does so by replicating frames and it is the incorrect post production procedure and will result in stuttered motion on pans and tilts. For proper motion, it is imperative that your sequence frame rate match your source footage frame rate.

IF you need a different frame rate on output such as 29.97 then you set your encoder to handle it with your preferred method of frame rate matching. For HD broadcast you take a 23.98 progressive sequence, send that sequence to media encoder, set the frame rate to 29.97 and the field order to upper first. Then a proper 3:2 (3 Progressive: 2 interlaced frames) telecine cadence will be introduced for proper broadcast. 

[jvknowles]

Are you saying this from a purely post perspective or specifically Premiere? Because this was NOT our experience, at least on CC 2014. I don't know if the issue has been solved since then but trust me when I say that your workflow would have resulted in a 4:1 pulldown in the final output instead of the the proper 3:2. We tried it several times, both through Media Encoder and straight from Premiere, but every output had the wrong cadence. The network kicked it back after it flunked QC and we switched over to editing at 29.97i instead of 23.98. We had no choice.

[chrisw44157881]

i hope this whole thread realizes that if you go back and edit 29.97 pulldown, you will create broken cadences all over the place. you have to reverse pulldown, place in 23.976 comp before doing any editing. this is an old, old problem that many people still think is a good idea.

[scottwild]

So just to confirm, if I shot something at 23.976p, and I need to export at 59.94i, then I would still edit on a 23.976 timeline, right? I only choose 59.94i on export, correct?