How to transcode Canon 5D mark II H.264 video into something editable?

Report · Dec 22, 2008

QT Pro v7.5 plays my 5Dm2 native video files just fine. Premiere CS4 however... unusable. I've heard that transcoding the H.264 40Mbps videos to another format allows a better editing experience.

Hardware:
Dell Precision 690, 1 quad-core 3GHz processor, 12GB RAM, 15000 rpm SAS system drive, 1TB SATA video disk (non-RAID), 1TB SATA temp disk (non-RAID), Quadro FX 3500 graphics card (non-CUDA unfortunately)

Question is... what is the most efficient format to transcode into?

A tutorial on Vimeo for Final Cut Pro on a mac mentions HDCAM EX as a format to use. (http://www.vimeo.com/2373679)
I don't see that option as shown on the Mac from my Vista box using either Adobe Media Encoder CS4 or MPEG Streamclip v1.2.

If I start a project in Premiere CS4 using the HDCAM EX 1080p presets, what is the corresponding Media Encoder format to choose for converting my clips before importing to Premiere?

I'm currently testing the following output format in AME:
MPEG2 Blu-Ray: 1920x1080,23.976 fps, Progressive, Quality 5, no audio, VBR 2-pass, bitrate setings of 25 min 35 target 40 max.

Has anyone determined a transcoding process that provides full HD quality while maintaining any ability to scrub and edit Canon 5D mark II video in Premiere CS4?

Report · Dec 30, 2008

Hi.
If that can be of any help, I describe in great details my workflow with the Canon 5D Mark II and Adobe Premiere CS4, using proxies and offline editing. After this video:
http://www.vimeo.com/2641870

Report · Dec 31, 2008

Sebastien, Thanks for sharing this. Very interesting.

Mark, this supports your point as well:

> Your typical computer setup even now chokes on 15mbps h.264 already. And now we have 40mbps h.264?

I know someone said it, but I didn't get it: the Canon H.264 is a different codec than the regular Quicktime, even though it is wrapped as a Quicktime file?

Report · Dec 31, 2008

Stanley,

I'm not so sure about the Canon h.264 codec being different than 'regular' Quicktime. From what I understand the 5d video plays perfectly with Quicktime right out of the camera.

Report · Dec 31, 2008

Sebastien - great info, thank you very much. I'm going to try this.

Report · Jan 04, 2009

Interesting topic - I too will have a go at Sebastien's work around for HD when I get a moment (thanks for that).

Quick question can anyone give me their project settings for CS4 for SD editing? I had a look and I didn't see anything exactly right - ie 640x480, 30 fps - or can you create custom settings of your own?

Another thing 😉 - probably a silly question (sorry I have been away from editing for some time) but are we now not really shooting in PAL or NTSC any more? In other words that is only an output option? Hope that makes sense,

Cheers,

Malcolm

Report · Jan 08, 2009

I'm a mac man, so I hope someone here can help have just bought the new Canon compact SX1 IS here in Australia which also shoots Full HD H264 30fps. It is NTSC/PAL switchable but still plays at 30fps! I agree with Malcolm, am I missing something here? Doesn't PAL MEAN it has to be at 25 fps?

I note that several people above talk about software being available for Pal 30 fps -25fps down conversion.

If that is so you are doing a lot better than I am in finding it! Just to reiterate, I need a mac program that will convert smooth,full HD H.264 PAL footage from 30fps to 25fps so I can cut it in Final Cut pro.
By the way I've managed to put it into the final cut timeline as full HD, but when I try to change the H264 compressor setting from 30fps to 25fps it won't let me. Help, or a point in the right direction, will be greatly appreciated

Report · Jun 06, 2009

Well, you can take it onto the timeline and render the lot and go to sleep for 5 hours. in Premiere Pro 1.5.1 , you can alter the speed of the clips on the timeline if it appears too unsmooth ?

Some if not all of the clips on a 35 min project was simply stunning. But, you need sometimes to watch the speed of say a car or tram and alter it to 85% as the Mark II canon 5D travels at 30fps and taking off the timeline unaltered can be unsmooth for a Canon HV 20 running at 25fps..

I believe some smart tech at Adobe can fix this simply , but, most techs on the phone verge on the incompetent.

I am getting there with the help of a top Aussie tech working on Edius they do work with CS3 sometimes , there is an answer out there. We work in Full high definition which does not come with the trial version of CS4 , how useless is that. The techs in melboune tell me there is an issue with mov. files in CS4 and they are working to fix that ??????????????????????

Let me know when it happens, because CS4 does not match the stunning video coming out of the Canon D Mark II ################

Report · Jan 08, 2009

After much experimenting, I've settled on the following workflow: 1. download clips from camera 2. transcode clips in Adobe Media Encoder with the following settings Format: MPEG2 Summary - video: NTSC, 1920x1080, 29.97 (or 23.967), Progressive, Quality 5.0 audio: 384 kbps, 48 kHz, 16 bit, Stereo, MPEG encode: VBR, 2-pass, Min 25.00, Target 39.00, Max 39.92 Mbps 3. Start Premiere, choose XDCAM EX 1080p 24p or 30p preset. 4. import clips ... I find I still have to render my clips on the timeline. AME preset xml included. See Adobe KB article for where to put this data file. http://help.adobe.com/en_US/AdobeMediaEncoder/4.0/WS1c9bc5c2e465a58a91cf0b1038518aef7-7cc0.html "Canon 5Dm2 video to HDTV 1080p 29.97 39Mbps with Audio.epr" <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <PremiereData Version="3"> <StandardFilters Version="1"> <DeinterlaceState>false</DeinterlaceState> <CropType>0</CropType> <CropRect>0,0,0,0</CropRect> <CropState>false</CropState> </StandardFilters> <DoEmulation>false</DoEmulation> <DoVideo>true</DoVideo> <DoAudio>true</DoAudio> <PresetID>63f83cdc-1dcd-4823-a154-2de0c74a71df</PresetID> <PostProcParamContainer ObjectRef="98"/> <FilterParamContainer ObjectRef="91"/> <ExportParamContainer ObjectRef="1"/> <ExporterFileType>1836082994</ExporterFileType> <ExporterClassID>1095583008</ExporterClassID> <ExporterName></ExporterName> <PresetComments>Custom</PresetComments> <PresetName>Canon 5Dm2 video to HDTV 1080p 29.97 39Mbps with Audio</PresetName> <ExporterParamContainer ObjectID="1" 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Report · Jan 08, 2009

Followed the OP suggestions and it works like a charm. No need to do any rendering of effects on my machine. Thanks!!!

Report · Jan 08, 2009

Subscribing

Report · Jan 09, 2009

Did you also try encoding with a CBR matching the MkII's data rate, Fabrizio? Just curious why you went with the VBR 2-pass.

Report · Jan 09, 2009

No, I admit I did not. It was a conscious decision, if not the most well-informed. I decided that if I was going to transcode, I'd allow the bitrate to vary if it could be less than the native data rate in order to minimize size where possible.

This was on the assumption that a non-realtime encoder (AME) using my quad-core machine could do a more efficient job with better quality control while varying the bitrate than the DIGIC-IV processor in the camera which needs to be optimized for essentially real-time encoding. In-camera, CBR makes sense.

Perhaps there is some level of loss in quality and certainly data using VBR encoding but I can say that it looks as good as the native file playback at 24-inches on my editing system and at 111-inches on a Sony VPL-VW60 projector in my screening theater.

Bob, or anyone else, can you offer a reason to maintain CBR encoding instead of VBR?

I'm always looking to learn and improve.

Report · Jan 09, 2009

My guess would be that the camera itself records to a CBR (40 MB/s?), so transcoding the same way might help maintain maximum quality. I could be wrong, though. Your idea to use VBR to reduce file sizes but maintain quality makes sense.

Report · Jan 12, 2009

The Canon 5D Mark II records at 38.6 MB/s. I have been using poster Rizzo's mpeg-2 work flow with full success (thanks!). I transcode CBR at 38.6 and this works well, faster than VBR with slightly smaller files.

Report · Jan 12, 2009

Good to know Charles. Thanks for the info.

Report · Jan 31, 2009

I have some questions about setting up a pre-set for editing in CS4. My list is more of a "list of questions" than answers. After reading numerous posts in various forums I am trying to put together a pre-set that will be a starting point, so I can begin to understand how to solve the problems with playback. I have a quad core and I am going to add new graphics card, but not sure which one to get yet.

-- Premiere CS4 settings --
Editing mode: Desktop
Timebase: 30fps (not 29.97?)
Frame size: 1920 x 1080 pixels
Pixel aspect ratio: 1.0 or 0.9 (?)
Fields: Progressive scan (no fields)
30 fps Non Drop Frame Timecode
Audio sample rate: 44.1 (?)
Codec for previews: V210 10-bit YUV (HD-SDI)
Maximum bit depth
Maximum render quality
Set the master channel to Stereo, not mono or 5.1 surround

I have some questions about setting up a pre-set for editing in CS4. My list is more of a "list of questions" than answers. After reading numerous posts in various forums I am trying to put together a pre-set that will be a starting point, so I can begin to understand how to solve the problems with playback. I have a quad core and I am going to add new graphics card, but not sure which one to get yet.

Report · Jan 31, 2009

PAR: 1.0
Audio: 48 KHz
Timebase depends on what you shot. Well, everything depends on what you shot, but if you start with 1920x1080 (PAR 1.0) I assume that is what you shot and the rest follows from there. 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 depends on the ingest method and what you shot and when and how you transfer it. HD-SDI or firewire. I suggest you do some reading on these topics.

Report · Jan 31, 2009

Hull, thanks for the rate info.

Random sampling of my direct-from-camera MOV files using QT Player to view the properties seems to provide varying bit-rates sometimes as high as 41.5 mbps. Are we sure that the camera is recording CBR at 38.6?

Report · Jan 31, 2009

Look in the camera manual.

Report · Jan 31, 2009

The V210 codec is for use with the AJA add-in card. I don't know for sure it that'll cause any issues without the card, but it's something to be aware of.

Report · Jan 31, 2009

Rizzo,

I got the 38.6 from the specs in the original Digital Photography Review. This reads: "1920 x 1080 (16:9) up to 12 mins (Quicktime 1080p H.264; 38.6 Mbits/sec)". This is not Canon official, have never seen the Canon spec, but DPR is normally an accurate source. Don't know whether the "up to" implies VBR or not; I've assumed it is CBR.

I've been using 38.6 mbps CBR mpeg transcoding for several weeks now and getting good color and detail all the way to Blu Ray. But I would switch to VBR if it's technically correct. I agree, I had seen varying rates during MOV playback but I decided I didn't have the tools to accurately measure this.

I guess a question, if I transcode at 38.6 CBR and the source video is VBR, varying up to 41.5 mbps, what effect might I see in the transcoded video?

Report · Jan 31, 2009

At the data rates we're talking about I suspect the visual differences would be minimal.

Based on my limited [read: casual enthusiast not professional) experience and knowledge, I think I understand there to be two conditions to consider on the theoretical level:

When transcoding VBR content to CBR, any loss of frame data caused by the original coding algorithm to allow the drop in bit-rate would remain in the CBR re-coded version. (valid when VBR instantaneous bit-rate is lower than your CBR setting) Recoding to a constant rate would provide no additional quality or playback benefits under this specific condition.

For sections of the video that had been VBR encoded to data rates higher than your CBR limit, the codec would have to optimize and compress as it normally would when down-sampling. The sections of video that benefited from the maximum rate of 41.5 mbps would now lose some level of fidelity (noticeable or not) to meet the 38.5 mbps rate. Assuming that the original MOV files exceed 38.5 mbps as QT Player reports.

Considering that my 41.5 mbps VBR MPEG2 files are larger than the original MOV files, I wonder if the MPEG2 stream is simply more bulky than the H.264 original, or if the increased maximum data rate is padding out the file with extra data.

I might try both CBR and 2-pass VBR at 38.6mbps (max) and see how things turn out in terms of visual quality and transcode render times.

Report · Jan 31, 2009

Transcoding MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 for editing purpose is a bad idea.

It means you lower the picture quality of an anyhow not great MPEG-4 to the even lower quality of MPEG-2.

The solution if you have no NLE to edit MPEG-4, is to transcode the camera footage to a higher quality codec; or if the hard drives are fast enough (e.g SATA-300) to uncompressed, but not Quicktime uncompressed, because Premiere can't handle any Quicktime video. Quicktime video are all video with the extension *.mov

H.264, H.263, On2 VP6, FLV, ASP, AVC, HDX4, AVC1, DAVC, X264, VSSH, AVCHD, MainConcept H.264 etc., are all the same MPEG-4 video standard. The differ by what is AVC or ASP, but an On2-VP6 flash is 100% the same video as an H.264
.

Report · Jan 31, 2009

Angelo,

What would you consider a higher-quality codec?

The point of this thread is to determine the best-case usable editing workflow on a Windows platform using Adobe Premiere CS4 for editing Canon 5D mark II video content specifically.

The low-level issue seems to be that the QT H.264 codec shipped for the windows platform isn't well tuned (to put it generously) and doesn't play nice with Premiere as you mentioned.

Any thoughts as to why QT and Premiere don't get along?

Out-of-the-box Premiere CS4 capabilities are the limits of the sandbox for this discussion. Higher-end turn-key and real-time NLE solutions are out-of-scope.

Any specific suggestions within these bounds would be greatly appreciated.

At least for me, space and disk configuration issues are paramount and uncompressed HD video just isn't an option (lack of RAID, or avail. space to move archives and re-partition)...

Report · Jan 31, 2009

First, I don't know your camera model. Second, we edit all H.264 in Final Cut, but author the Blu--Ray in EncoreDVD; H.264 is the standard asset for Blu-Ray.

- I have no clue why PremierePro can't handle any Quicktime, could be that you have to install some additional plug-ins from MainConcept.

I receive all sorts of Quicktime video made in AVID, Final Cut, with Blackmagic quicktime codecs, transcodes made by ProCoder etc., none is working in Premiere, Premiere can not even re-import Quicktime video made by Premiere itself. The problem is that the import of Quicktime takes forever; once it is importet it works sosolala, but often the Premiere simply crashes.

- For a temporary solution, so you can edit, you can use HuffYuv v2.1.1, an older codec which compresses to 50% of fully uncompressed. That way you can at least preserve most of the MPEG-4 picture quality for editing, and then render a master in whatever delivery codec. But you still have the problem how to transcode the H.264 to any other codec, in this case HuffYuv.

- Another possibility would be AVI, simply create an AVI preset with 1920x1080 and the required fps (framse per second). Always control square pixel versa quadratic pixel. Normally a H.264 video is square pixel. I don't know what pixel ratio your camera is recording. Also here, you still have the problem how to transcode the H.264 to AVI.

- Another possibility is installing the MainConcept H.264/AVC, or the MainConcept H.264/AVC-PRO plug-in:

http://www.mainconcept.com

because I think Premiere still doesn't support natively MPEG-4 , also I don't know if this plug-in makes Premier work with H.264, see manual:

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/PremierePro/4.0/WS01FCC81E-8CF6-437a-AAD7-A2D8F9175BF0a.html

.