Safe Title and Action Areas ...screwy set up!

[shooternz]

Does Adobe Premiere have the Safe Title and Action Areas set up ...backwards?   (i.e screwy)

I am resetting the areas according to latest  Broadcast specs ( New Zealand) issued by BC Authority.  '2012 Commercial Production Standard'

Quote from Spec sheets

High Definition (1920 x1080) with 4:3 Graphics safe and 14:9 Action Safe areas

14:9 Action Safe = 80% of 16:9 Width .  93% of Height

4:3 Graphics Safe = 65% of  16:9 Width .  90% of Height

So one reads that as:  area covering 80% width and 93% height  (and respectively area covering 65% width and 90% height)

(Area is the operative word as in Safe Area)

If these figures are entered into Premiere Project Set up..they display small areas.  Inverse size.

Not areas proportional to the figures describingthe  area.  eg 80, 90 and 93% are certainly closer to 100% ( the whole area)

So what gives here?

FWIW: In the past I have used the 20, 20 and 10, 10 set up ..without actually thinking why it was done this way!

Out of interest : anyone got access to these specs for BBC or U.S stations. How are they described?

Here is how Wiki describes the safe area

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overscan

[excited_Genie16B8]

We know it's not uncommon.  In fact, it's quite common.

We're saying it's also quite annoying.  In this day and age, there's just no excuse for anyone broadcasting 16:9 material in 4:3.  If it's shot 16:9, it should only be broadcast in 16:9.  Fill up the frame when composing, use the proper 16:9 20% title safe, add you're little station ID bugs to the corner of the 16:9 frame, etc.  Broadcasters need to forget about 4:3 entirely when it comes to new content.

[SFL46]

"Broadcasters need to forget about 4:3 entirely when it comes to new content."

So what you are saying is that broadcasters should ignore the large number of people that still own 4 x 3 sets.  While it is true that flat screens have pretty much killed the market for 4 x 3 sets, there are likely a substantial number of 4 x 3 sets still in use. 

in a parallel, many of us may recognize the aesthetic beauty of a film shot in Black and White, but does the general public that buys the stuff the advertisers push, really care?  So what do the broadcasters do?  They seek not to exclude anyone.

[Steven L. Gotz]

I think Jim is right. If people have a 4:3 set then letterboxed is the way to go. I still watch a little SD on my HDTV - no choice if what I want to watch is only on a SD channel. But some of these channels letterbox. That way I get the entire picture.

Maybe we need a big promotional campaign like the one the US had when eliminating analog transmission.  Just tell everyone that letterboxing is coming to a set near you starting 1/1/2013.  If you don't like it, or get tired of sitting closer to the television set, then buy a new TV. Otherwise, put your easy chair closer to the TV so that when the picture seems smaller than before, you can still see it just fine.

[excited_Genie16B8]

So what you are saying is that broadcasters should ignore the large number of people that still own 4 x 3 sets.

Not at all.  I'm saying that broadcasters should be showing all 16:9 content at 16:9, so that anyone watching on a 4:3 set will get black bars, but still see the whole frame.

[shooternz]

Not at all.  I'm saying that broadcasters should be showing all 16:9 content at 16:9, so that anyone watching on a 4:3 set will get black bars, but still see the whole frame.

How would the broadcast system determine when and where to scale the footage it broadcasts? 

Most countries are progressively moving to the 16:9 standard but its a long and winding road. Not many are committing to a cut off date for full implementation.   

NZ for example is in the stage of implementing an all digital transmision broadcast.  (ie no analog transmision). Its rolling out in big chunks of the country at a time.  ( 3 or 4 chunks I think) .. Started this month (October) and will take a year.  Imagine how long this will take in the U.S!

Once everyone is receiving full digital...the system will be easier to control by broadcasters.

[excited_Genie16B8]

How would the broadcast system determine when and where to scale the footage it broadcasts? 

That's done at the viewers' end, not the broadcasters.  If you're watching on a 4:3 set, you have some type of convertor box.   That would handle this function.

[shooternz]

Set Top Boxes ( STB) already have this function. As do someTVs.

The Freeview System is either STB or incorporated to TVs.

The STB is one of the reasons why we still have 4:3 Safe Tilte Specs for TVC's.

[excited_Genie16B8]

The STB is one of the reasons why we still have 4:3 Safe Tilte Specs for TVC's.

Don't much care how it's done for commercials.  I finally gave up on TV and now watch everything on Netflix anyway.

Producing 4:3 programs is just not acceptable in today's world.

[shooternz]

Don't much care how it's done for commercials.

You would have to care if you were making or editing them!

[excited_Genie16B8]

TOUCHÉ

[SimonHy]

The crazy thing is that all these title safe issue are the same for programming as they are for TVCs, yet there's one spec for shows and another for ads. I'm pretty sure people are watching these things on the same displays... It's pretty obvious  the TVC spec needs updating, otherwise in a year when it is updated everyone will have to remake their ads again. The hell with that.

[shooternz]

The NZ issue Simon is do to do with "legals" on TVCs.

The broadcasters want to guarantee they are free from the liabilty of someone not being able to read them in there entirety.

(there are plenty of SD TVCs still in use according to them. eg 2nd tellys)

My suggestion to them was include the spec that legals are 4:3 safe within the myriad of rules that already apply to "legals".

( font size, legibility, duration etc.....)

The broadcasters group is very open to discussing  /  making the change ...so we are in line with U.K and Australian standards for TVC spec. ie. 14:9  Safe Title.

They just need us to push it a little before there upcoming meeting.

[SimonHy]

So it comes down to fine print about the fine print. I see.

I thought the set top boxes letterboxed content on 4x3 TVs, but to be honest I don't know anyone that has one (or a 4x3 TV still) so have no way of confirming that.

[josephs51576386]

In the USA most set top boxes do indeed letterbox. Although I have seen a couple that center cut instead by default. Then end up requiring you to set it to letterbox. The other issue is that some stations air their main air signal as 4x3 and end up taking some sat feeds which are 16x9 and instead of letterboxing they center cut the feed. So this is also part of the reason you end up getting stuck having to follow 4x3 safe margins for some things. Which totally sucks IMO.  The other reason a lot of stations still make people follow 4x3 margins is due to the fact that some stations still actually use seperate ingest servers for tape formats that recorded to tape as 16x9. Then before it goes to air it ends up getting center cut and aired as 4x3 in the end. (Because some people don't like the look of letterboxed content) Which personally drives me nuts.

[taz291819]

The biggest problem is the cable companies.  Many broadcast both a HD and SD version of local channels.

For instance, they take our HD signal, and pass it for the HD version.  For the SD version, they center-cut our 16:9 signal, down-convert, and broadcast that as the SD version.  We as broadcasters don't get a choice.  We'd rather them letterbox the down-converted version, but they don't.

While I don't have to keep things 4:3 safe, I do 95% of the time.  Though, every now and then, just depending on the circumstances, I put some titles or graphics out into 16:9 safe.  Not critical information, just something like a logo or something.  When I do this, we simply call it "added-value" for 16:9 viewers. 

I wish we didn't have to be 4:3 safe, but our hands are tied.  Thank you cable companies!

Though, I do wish Adobe would add 4:3 margins in Premiere, just like After Effects does.  Heck, our cameras even do it.

[excited_Genie16B8]

Thank you cable companies!

I think it goes even higher than them.  I blame the technocrats and legislators who created the specs and rules.  They simply didn't do their jobs very well.

[josephs51576386]

Most (If not all) cable boxes and sattilite boxes will letterbox 16x9 material when hooked up to a 4x3 TV set.(I've never seen one that doesn't, although I have seen a few that require your to manually configure because their default setup is to center cut 16x9 when hooked up to a 4x3 set instead) Anyways though I guess what I wish would happen, is that TV stations here in the USA would quit requiring everyone to follow 4x3 safe margins so that you can use the entire frame. Since probably 95 percent of people in the USA wouldn't ever be affected since when they watch 16x9 content on 4x3 sets the material is letterboxed anyways.

[josephs51576386]

I've never heard of anything like that at all. But all the work I have done is only for programming here in the USA.

[gulishian]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3ZeiQ71042lT1VscVRwbTVTR0k/edit?usp=sharing

14:9, 4:3 PSD frames based on BBC standards:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/pdf/tv/TechnicalDeliveryStandardsBBCv3.pdf

Hope it will be usefull