Can I get Disable Auto Tone Mapping? Have it default to off?

[Kyle Kramb]

Interesting feature but I don't need/want it!

I would like to be able to set the default to off. Is there a way to do this in PP 2024? 

[Ann Bens]

For log video

[Kyle Kramb]

@Ann Bens that still requires manually changing the setting every time you create a new sequence.  Adobe defaults the box checked in the sequence settings no matter what the project settings are.

I suspose I can create a sequence preset but I like to drag my clips the new item icon at the bottom of the bin to create new sequences. Can that be mapped to a preset? No.

Frustrating.

[Ann Bens]

Why do you want it off?

[Kyle Kramb]

Will for one, it's a relatively new feature. Why am I being forced to use it? (I have trust issues)

If Premiere Pro will manipulate the color of my footage, I want to opt into that.  I don't want any effect to happen automatically. Seems like something that can cause quality control issues, especially if I am using footage that has already been graded. I realize it should only be triggered on LOG footage, but I can't trust that to happen 100% of the time. I will go in and turn this off everytime and that is wasteful. This seems like a feature for novices, if so, at least give the experts a way to turn it off. I already know how to work with LOG footage.

What happens if I grade a clip with this setting turned on and then export using a setting that turns it off? I haven't tried this yet but I don't trust that the export will look the same as the way it did in the project.

Maybe this is a great feature, one that I may even taken advantage of. Always defaulting on is a problem.

[R Neil Haugen]

Ok, if you don't want the new capabilities, I could go along with allowing that to be a sticky setting. User choice after all.

That said ... as someone who's spent the last decade working with/for/teaching pro colorists, mostly based in Resolve, I've got a lot of background on this.

The process Adobe's video devs are using to do the tone-mapping is a rather complex algorithm, vastly more capable and "safe" for your pixels than any log-based normalization. Guaranteed to have no clipping of whites, no crushing of blacks, no artifacts induced by a LUT ... which is something most LUTs do under 'the right circumstances'.

It won't look exactly the same as any particular LUT transform, and isn't expected to mimic them. But that's expected ... no camera manufacturer thinks their LUTs for log normalization are perfect for all situations, just ... the ones the LUT was created under.

Which is another thing most non-colorists totally miss about LUTs. They're either built for specific original scene lighting/contrast/saturation/camera settings, or for an "average". Either way, they'll work best only when the exposure/contrast/sat of the clip matches what the LUT was built to work on. Which isn't too likely for field produced clips.

So yes, you do need to setup a new grading process going forward. But you will be working with cleaner pixels on your sequences.

Colorists use LUTs for certain ... but they also call them "the dumbest math out there" and for a whole passel of good reasons. One should never, ever ... simply trust a LUT even from the manufacturer, but test it, find where it breaks. And probably roll your own instead.

[Kyle Kramb]

Never said I didn't want new capabilities, if that was the case I'd run an old version. I'm all for the idea of Tone Mapping functionality. I'll probably use it all the time, but including it as a sequence setting that is toggled on seems problematic. I rather start with noting and add what I want to a sequence then have to remeber what's been added for me and decided if I need to turn it off or not.

What if I do have a LUT from the DP or colorist? Is there the potential that something strange will happen? What happens if the Tone Mapping is toggled on and the editor or assistant is unaware and does some color work but exports using a setting where Tone Mapping is turned off (or vice versa).  Best I can tell if you export your sequence from PP using Media Encoder "Tone Mapping" defaults to off. The idea a image can look one way on playback in premiere pro but another after export because some used a different setting is weird to me. What if I get clips from a colorist that have a grade but PP intrepts them as LOG (maybe not likely but it could happen).

It seems like a strange place to put that functionality. Seems it would make more sense as an effect or Lumitri setting.

I'll create a new sequence preset for myself but I often create my sequence by dragging a clip to the "new item" icon in the bin, which uses the clip settings not presets to create the sequence. Another work around would be if I could determine the settings of that button, but alas, that's not possible either.

[R Neil Haugen]

As to the last comment, note that all of the CM controls are now in the Lumetri panel.

As to the earlier, yea, it would be good to give a "sticky" option. Past that, there will always be ways for things to go south. No matter whether in Premiere or Resolve.

So it always takes communication, detailed written project protocols and such.

[Kyle Kramb]

I agree, care always needs to be taken. Why introduce a feature that can so easily be improperly implemented. I've been doing this a long time too. I should be able to hand off a project and not have to make a laundry list of settings that need to be checked for someone to render out my sequence. Its a strange place for that settling to live and the fact that it defaults on in PP but defaults of in ME further baffles me. 

[R Neil Haugen]

The default "on" one place, default "off" in another, is a frustrating mess. No question.

But it's a new and incredibly useful step forward for most workflows. I've been pleasantly surprised how well it works across various media types. But even there, it does need to cover a few more.

And I don't have a clue how one would pass of a project without a list of notes, personally.

[Kyle Kramb]

I think we agree that the feature is useful but the implementation not good. 

I would like to see the option to use this in a single place, like the lumetri panel, easy to find, easy to toggle on and off. 

also, a seperate but related issue would be the ability to batch export sequences to ME with the "same as sequence settings". That way once you get your sequence set the way you want there is a relatively foolproof way to export them. This would include tone mapping in its current configuration, etc. 

[R Neil Haugen]

But the controls for this are all in the Lumetri panel now. Project, Display, Input, Sequence ... all there in Lumetri at this time.

It can always be improved ... certainly!

[Kyle Kramb]

Yes, I realize. My request would be that they are only in Lumetri, like the other color controls, not also in sequence settings. 

I assume it was added there so that it would be on for novices with no interest in opening Lumetri. 

[R Neil Haugen]

Nope .... simply to have the settings available for the users that will do say batch settings, manually, using the variuos panels.

[Kevin-Monahan]

This appears to be a feature request. Moving to Ideas.

Kevin

[R Neil Haugen]

Thanks, Kevin!

[Kyle Kramb]

Follow up on this. I would like this option to be set off as default and also have the ability to toggle across multiple sequences. In the Lumetri panel, you are able to select a sequence and toggle this setting, but only one sequence at a time.

This setting is problematic because when on, it only effects the camera raw footage. If you export the footage to AE or Photoshop and bring it back the tone mapping isn't applied. I am exporting sections of my footage and compositing them in AE and Photoshop, but when dropped back into the sequence the colors don't match. I can simply un-check the box but I have, dozens of sequences and am constantly creating new ones using the "new item" button in the bin. I know have to remember to go into each sequence and uncheck this box. This is a level of potential human error that should not exist.

There are a lot of settings that are defaulted in certain ways but can be modified in the settings menu. It seems very strange to me that this is not one of them. I spend time whenever I start working on a new system or after an update checking these settings, as I am sure any experienced PP user does. That should be sufficient.

*My footage isn't even LOG or from an iPhone, and the Tone Mapping is changing the whites.

[Kyle Kramb]

There does seem to be a "solution" to my original issue, albeit not perfect.

Lumetri Color > Settings > "un-check" - Display Color Management

This appears to be a User Preference and universally disables the Tone Mapping and Auto Detect Log Footage, and maybe other settings too.

[R Neil Haugen]

I'm not quite following what's 'not perfect' about this, as you've found they do include the means for the user to turn this on or off ... which is what you seemed to be asking about.

So ... what would be "perfect"?

[Kyle Kramb]

I was looking for a way to turn off Tone Mapping; this turns off all color management and a user can't pick and choose.

[R Neil Haugen]

Display color management has nothing specifically to do with auto log or tonemapping. So I don't think you understand what that does.

A first question, what's your OS, and what monitor setup and settings are you using? Then ... some explanations.

Premiere used to assume the user provided an appropriately calibrated full Rec.709 monitor via manual means for working with pro video needs. So the app was coded expecting the display was correctly set to Rec.709, including ... sRGB primaries, brightness of 100 nits in a semi-darkened room, and a display gamma of 2.4.

But when Apple came out with the Retina monitors, they set their OS color utility ColorSync to use a display gamma approximating 1.96 for Rec.709 media. NOT ... what Premiere expected.

So the Pr devs came up with the Display Color Management preference option. If turned on, this simply tells the app to look at the OS level monitor ICC profile, and adjust the image within Premiere's program monitor ... as much as possible ... to a correct Rec.709 image. This was pre-HDR, of course.

It is highly recommended for all Mac users, and really, for most PC users who don't have a precisely setup broadcast viewing system.

But I run a PC with a very tightly controlled viewing system. All four monitors are calibrated with the X-rite puck/software. Then my 'reference' monitor is further calibrated with ColourSpace, and ... then I run a profile with ColourSpace, using Resolve to generate the test patches, to get graphs showing the results of the calibration. And don't accept the calibration and start working unless my delta-E and several other things show within acceptable bounds. (Most users don't need such precision, but I do.)

I do not use the DCM switched on for that desktop. And auto log detect and auto tonemapping work just fine, even with DCM off.

And yet, auto log detect and auto tonemapping also work fine do on my laptop, where I definitely need the DCM on!

So I think there are things about color management you don't quite understand yet, which is absolutely normal. It's ridiculously different than most of us think it is before learning how this all works.

And I'd be happy to work with you on that. As after you do get how this works, it actually does work pretty consistently and quite decently.

One thing many don't understand, is that though some Rec.709 camera media is encoded to log prior to writing to card, virtually all HDR forms are log-encoded. And this is where the auto detect log, and auto tonemapping do have huge affects on the imagery.

Further, you can set the various controls so that you handle everything manually per clip, or ... some or all of the auto settings. It is your choice, once you understand what the choices actually do.

[Kyle Kramb]

@R Neil Haugen I appreciate the explanation. I am working on a iMac Pro from 2017. I output my video to a calibrated broadcast monitor using an AJA IO-4k. I have someone else calibrate my broadcast monitors for me.

What I am concerned with and what seems to be the source of my confusion is these settings that, although may not be new, have recently moved around. Which settings are strictly used for monitoring, and which actually change the color of the file? I do not want something to look one way while I am working and then another way after export.

Am I right in assuming, based on my understanding of your post, the Display Color Management works strictly with your display and does not change any of the color properties of the footage? 

I am working with Rec709 MXF files, and when I toggle the Tone Mapping setting, the color shifts slightly on some of my clips. Is that a display thing or is this some sort of footage processing that is happening?

[R Neil Haugen]

 I output my video to a calibrated broadcast monitor using an AJA IO-4k. I have someone else calibrate my broadcast monitors for me.

Excellent! As you use the dedicated out via the AJA box, you may find it better to not have the DCM set to on. In my experience and understanding, DCM can actually lead to slight errors if running a fully controlled monitor setup like yours, or like my desktop.

So in your case, yes, turning off DCM may be a very wise and correct decision.

For Mac users without that dedicated output device, and for most PC users, DCM is probably better on. Not you, and not me.

Further, for you, set your Display gamma setting in the Settings tab to the same gamma your calibrator person sets things to. Probably gamma 2.4, I would assume, for any b-cast work. (This has other implications discussed below.)

What I am concerned with and what seems to be the source of my confusion is these settings that, although may not be new, have recently moved around.

Yea ... though the 2024 version did make this a LOT easier. As though they still exist in other places, the Lumetri Settings tab is the "home" for all CM settings. It's easiest to check & change thing there. Though some things like clip settings at times are only 'available' if you also click the clip in the bin ... not necessarily so intuitive but ah well. (I may be wrong on that, there are still a couple options I don't always 'get active' the first click myself!)

Which settings are strictly used for monitoring, and which actually change the color of the file?

The Display section is monitoring. Setting the DCM on/off, and changing the gamma settings, only affect the monitor feed, and not the file itself. The display gamma settings are new also. And again, only affect the display feed, not the file.

The Rec.709/broadcast 2.4 gamma option is pretty self-explanatory. For any b-cast work, when using a monitor set to proper b-cast Rec.709 specs.

The gamma 2.2 option, for 'web', is also similar. And actually, not just sRGB/web work, but for those working b-cast but in a bright office working environment, this is specifically listed in the Rec.709 standards. So even if working for general b-cast work, if you are in a bright, office type environment, viewing the file at gamma 2.2 is probably better. Delivery for web is fine with either 2.4 or 2.2, but ... that's a User Choice thing.

The other settings control various things about how Premiere 'reads' or manipulates file data.

I do not want something to look one way while I am working and then another way after export.

Yea, that's the trick, ain't it?

And it all depends. On your Mac, on that clean-feed screen, probably ... things from Pr will probably look the same outside on that feed ... as long as the apps are controlled by the AJA device.

But on other screens on your and other Macs, it ... depends.

• If the Mac monitor has an OS setting for Rec.709, that screen will get fed a signal using display gamma 1.96.
• If the Mac monitor is using the HDTV OS setting, then it gets a signal set to display gamma 2.4.

And naturally, the view will be different depending on which that monitor is set to.

I am working with Rec709 MXF files, and when I toggle the Tone Mapping setting, the color shifts slightly on some of my clips. Is that a display thing or is this some sort of footage processing that is happening?

I got ... finally ... some very specific answers this last NAB. Premiere (apparently) does not convert to clips to a "working space" in general, at least not as most of us would understand that concept.

The explanation I got was that Premiere always works at modifying the original file data. So clip CM settings are used to tell Premiere how to "present" the clip data on the timeline, a translation, perhaps. The display options tell Premiere how to display that image for color space and gamma.

And as long as your sequence CM and export CM settings are the same, it all works quite well.

Clip CM applied, then Lumetri, and then a perhaps forked tree to display and export. Keep the display and export the same, no surprises.

Auto log and auto tonemapping are used  for two different things in Pr 2024.

In Rec.709 sequences, they are used to replace the old LUT based normalization processes. As the LUTs are as colorists note, "the dumbest math out there". Though some LUTs are actually pretty complex, they are not nearly as capable as a well designed logarithmic tonemapping algorithm. They aren't "identical", so you slightly shift your post-tonemapped workflow ... but the transformation process is vastly safer to your pixels.

For HDR media used on a Rec.709 sequence ... most don't realize that virtually all HDR encoding is in log. While you can still manually use the clip CM controls to "Override-To Rec.709" ...  using the auto-log combined with auto-tonemapping just does that for you. AND ... you can then use a clip both for HDR sequences and for SDR/Rec.709 without problems in the same project.

So while there are some differences in what you've seen previously for those MXF files, Premiere is doing a very clean transform to your timeline. You might need to then do a slight change in your color corrections, of course.

[barat munji]

Don't want it either, this is potentially dangerous to critical work, should be off by default.

[R Neil Haugen]

For many color critical workflows auto tonemapping, using the complex mathematical algorithms used by both Adobe and BlackMagic (Resolve) are the safest, preferred tool. Including by professional colorists.

Which i work with/for/teach.

For some specific media, especially involving certain AE comps, tonemapping is not useful. 

As the vast majority of users benefit from this useful tool, the default is probably a good choice.

Start a new project, and first thing before adding media, go to the Settings tab of Lumetri and turn off those things you don't want. I  think those are sticky. At least they are on my machines.