Frame Rates 23.976 vs 29.976

Report · Apr 18, 2017

I work as a video editor, mainly outputting spots for broadcast tv. Occasionally those same spots will be used as digital ads as well (Youtube, Hulu, ect.) That being said, it's my understanding as an editor, that for commercial broadcast spots, your best bet is to shoot the ad at 29.976 fps, since in the end we need to deliver the finished spot to the TV stations at 29.976 fps anyways.

The creative director here, prefers to shoot our spots at 23.976 fps, mainly because he feels like it gives it a more cinematic look versus just shooting it at 29.976 fps. Is there any validity to this ? Since in the end we end up converting the finished spot to 29.976 anyways, should we just shoot the spot at 29.976 to begin with?

Report · Apr 18, 2017

IMO more frames are always better (smoother in action and movements...)

you should always be able to go back to 23.976.

Report · Apr 18, 2017

The "cinematic look" is, in reality, more blurriness as either the camera pans or subjects move. I'm in my 60's, so not a digital baby by any means (as in, born in the digital age ... ) ... and sitting in "cinemas" watching blurry pans and movement was always an irritant for me. I prefer the 29.976 shooting speed ... as, in blind tests that have been run, the vast majority of people viewing modern content.

Your Creative Director may have Delusions of Cinematic Grandeur ... just, as a possibility. Your audience doesn't.

Neil

Report · Apr 18, 2017

24p will look more "professional", more "cinematic" than 30i, all else being equal. 3:2 pulldown can easily take the footage to the broadcast standard, but if you shoot at 30i, you're losing that special "film look" and can't easily get it back.

I think you're creative director is right.

Report · Apr 18, 2017

Gotcha. So when converting from 23.976 to 29.976 for broadcast....will that "look" be cancelled out?

Report · Apr 18, 2017

It won't. 24p media viewed at 30i retains that film look.

DVDs are a good example of this.

Report · Apr 18, 2017

Awesome, one more follow up question. I did have an issue when I submitted a file to HULU to run as an ad. The project was shot at 23.976....but we dropped the clips into a 29.976 comp and did all the editing and graphics in there, since we intended to output the final at 29.976. HULU rejected the submission because as a rule they don't except files with duplicate frames caused by pulldown. I know the way around this particular issue would have been to edit everything natively in 23.976, and then we could have kicked at a file for HULU at 23.976. What would have been the best approach to get rid of the pull down, after we had already been editing the project in a 29.976 comp and were ready to kick out a file for HULU? (fyi project is rough cut in PR and finished in AE)

Report · Apr 18, 2017

My first thought is to edit at the frame rate of the footage, and change it on export. PP will add the pulldown when needed.

Report · Apr 21, 2017

I've been trying to convert a tv spot from 23.976FPS to 29.97FPS for broadcast. I simply bring the 23.976 video file (created in After Effects) into a 29.97 timeline in Premiere. It seems to add pulldown correctly, and plays back correctly on my broadcast monitor. I then export the file in Adobe Media Encoder as a 29.97 file, interlaced, upper field first.

HOWEVER, when I sent this spot to Spectrum, the spot played horribly on tv. It looked like it would if you play the file on a progressive computer monitor. I have researched this, and can not figure out what else I should be doing for this conversion.

Am I making the video file the wrong way in After Effects? Any ideas?

Report · Apr 21, 2017

Hi Jerry:

You want to introduce the 3:2 pulldown via the Render Settings in After Effects. After adding your Comp to the Render Queue, go into the Render Settings, enable Field Rendering (if you're footage is 1920x1080, this is going to be Upper Field First). Then, change 3:2 Pulldown from Off to WSSWW (technically, any of the cadence options are fine as you're not matching a file that was pulled up). Set the Output Module as needed and render the i29.97 version of your video.

Your file will pass QC and look great when broadcast.

-Warren

Report · Apr 22, 2017

When I follow your suggestion, the file I get looks exactly the same as what I was making before. So some quick questions…

1. Is After Effects doing something in the pulldown process that Premiere does not? Is it adding a hidden flag somewhere that identifies the file as interlaced instead of progressive? While I can make the animation in After Effects, I still need to go through Premiere and Media Encoder to make the final master spot. Is adding the pulldown in After Effects the key?

2. Is it possible the H.264 codec I’m using is screwing things up on their end?

3. The Spectrum specs say they prefer 59.94i. Should I try exporting the spot in 59.94i? That version looks good on my computer monitor…no field judder.

Jerry

Report · Apr 26, 2017

Are you viewing the 29.97 3:2 pulldown file in an application that displays fields? If so, you should see the interlaced scan lines in areas of motion. If the application playing the file is displaying "Single Field" (Premiere's default) or removing the pulldown (After Effects' default), it will either look really close to the p24 original or exactly the same.

1. Yes, After Effects is introducing cadence (the progressive p24 frame being pulled across interlaced i60 fields) as specified.

2. Yes, H264 could be screwing everything up. For broadcast, you're ready-to-broadcast delivery would likely be a MPEG2 Transport Stream inside of an MXF wrapper.

3. i59.94 and i29.97 are two ways of referring to the same thing. 59.94 is fields per second while 29.97 is frames per second. In this context, i60 and i30 are two more ways to refer it as well.

Report · Apr 22, 2017

plays back correctly on my broadcast monitor. I then export the file in Adobe Media Encoder

How does the export look on your system?

Report · Apr 22, 2017

When I bring the exported file back into premiere, and play it through my broadcast monitor, it looks correct. This is why I've been so frustrated. It seems to work correctly on my end, but it doesn't work at spectrum.

Jerry MacKay

716-713-0974

www.littleflick.com

www.jerrymackay.com

Report · Apr 22, 2017

Well, with the data to hand so far, it's looking like their system is the issue.

Report · Apr 21, 2017

For what it's worth, I've always felt that film as a medium for acquiring a moving image is what makes images shown in rapid sucession look like film, not frame rate. Now that just about everything is video, it's gamma curves and grain filters that mimic film.

Back in the early 1900s, film was recorded by a film camera that was hand cranked and viewed on a kinescope that was also hand cranked. If the filming or playback sped up or sped down, it still looked like film because it was film.

And film transferred to video will still look like film, regardless of frame rate.

The video look that many dislike (but several have become accustomed to) is not a direct result of frame rate, but rather video being a different medium entirely (both in it's prior analog version and current digital version).

Video has gotten significantly better at looking like film (being progressive instead of interlaced was a huge step as well), but frame rate isn't what makes that happen.

Report · Sep 01, 2017

it's my understanding as an editor, that for commercial broadcast spots, your best bet is to shoot the ad at 29.976 fps, since in the end we need to deliver the finished spot to the TV stations at 29.976 fps anyways

You shoot int he frame rate that supports the look you want.

The creative director here, prefers to shoot our spots at 23.976 fps, mainly because he feels like it gives it a more cinematic look

The creative director is right, 24 has a specific look that can be very appealing.

All you need to do is to do what has been done for 60 years, add frames to make 23.98 29.97, this is called 3:2 pull down. Look up 3:2 pull down and you will find a bunch of information. Most software will do this automatically if the project clip is 23.98 and the output is 29.97.