Forum etiquette FAQ + Moderator Enforcement

[Guest]

jochemd wrote:

Since despite the plethora of messages nobody is even attempting to provide any arguments or suggestions towards improving the FAQ, this thread is being locked. Since the only currently provided reason for changing the FAQ is rather pointless in light of the overal rules, I am not updating the FAQ.

The problem with this is that you're assuming that nobody new is going to come along with a question or addition that will put the thread back on topic--it happens all the time.  So if someone comes along, sees the original post, and wants to comment--now they have to create a new thread like this. Why waste the time locking the thread?

Ramón G Castañeda wrote:

The Forum etiquette and best practices page contains something I had not noticed before.  It may have been added recently.

Don't:

• …
• …
• Personally attack people, their edits (including spelling or grammar)…

Actually I strongly agree with this rule (change?)*.

*(It was there last time I looked and it seems to me that it's a typical forum rule.)

I've been the witness and target of personal attacks here for awhile now, so yes it does need to stop, and moderators should be removing this type of offensive comment.  But mods need to have the sense to detect good-natured joking around vs. an actual personal attack.

Really though, inappropriate behavior like this shouldn't be that difficult to most people with some common sense.

It's not that hard:

• Questioning someone's intelligence? Unacceptable
• Questioning someone's educational background? Unacceptable
• Correcting someone's spelling, politely without implying that they're an idiot (a personal attack)? OK
• Correcting someone's grammar, politely without implying that they're an idiot (a personal attack)? OK
• Correcting someone's spelling or grammar in a rude, inappropriate, or condescending manner? Unacceptable
• Criticizing person B for politely correcting (editing) person A's grammar or spelling? Unacceptable - according to the Adobe rule specified above

It doesn't say you can't correct someone's spelling or grammar, it seems to say not to attack people for (politely, obviously) correcting another's mistake.  I think.    It could use a little clarification, the "..." at the end hints that it's incomplete--but the rule itself is needed IMO.

[Guest]

But according to Adobe's description, ACEs "agree to be active contributors" and to do the four things mentioned above.  Perhaps if Adobe enforced this agreement a little more, it might motivate a number of them to return/become active here.

Of course, they'd have to deal with Jiveware...

[Guest]

jochemd wrote:

John Joslin wrote:

I think they do care, but about statistics. If half a dozen valuable posters leave and 10 newbies sign, on that's a positive result to the suits.

I don't keep statistics on users, but the quantity of posts has increased since the migration to the new forum.

So more people need help. All the nubies in the world signing up for the forum isn't going to solve the problems or answer the questions of all the other nubies. So you have a forum comprised of the blind leading the blind. That's helpful!

[Captiv8r]

Hi there

John makes a valid point. And if Adobe sees valuable posters leave that also leave kicking and screaming with nothing but things like "your forums suck cheese" and ten new users arrive that say nothing and don't voice complaints, they are probably wondering how bad the forums can really be after all. They may figure if the forums were really that bad, they would be hearing complaints from all channels of the spectrum. Not just a specific area.

Just thinking out loud... Rick

[Jochem van Dieten]

Buko. wrote:

neither you or any of the other experts or mods know what Adobe is planning

How could we when Adobe doesn't know?

You have forgotten the 0th rule of enterprise bureaucracy: doing nothing is the slution for everything.

[Guest]

You have forgotten the 0th rule of enterprise bureaucracy: doing nothing is the slution for everything.

unless they're running VB. then it's the 1st rule...

[Guest]

all there really remains is our frustration and a need to make sure Adobe doesn't start to think we've gotten used to this crap forum software.

agreed.

[Kath-H]

It's OK, it's working. People don't like a police state so they say, basically 'fine, sort it out for yourselves. Or not' - and shut up.

So obviously there are no complaints, so everyone is happy. Jochem is congratulated for sorting out the forum, smiles all round.

I love Big Brother ... I love Big Brother ...

[Guest]

Kath-H wrote:

I love Big Brother ... I love Big Brother ...

Well I don't and will continue to voice my opinion against it.

What ever happened to common sense? Jochem claim to have been around since 2001 but acts like he joined yesterday.

[Guest]

The new people may not complain because they see how the forum software works and thus call it normal. Once something is deemed normal over a period of time it turns into a standard. But the standard is not normal because the bar was lowered without the new people fully knowing what it was like in the past. The result of sloppy standards is pure slop. I know the issue is between Adobe and Jive. But if people know there are problems and no longer complain the powers to be will assume everything is perfect thus no need for change.

The lobbing of nukes between posters and Mods have pretty much abated. Seems more of a uneasy calm. Some problems have been solved and the air has been cleared of the fog of what is expected between groups. Communication is a good thing no matter how much it may hurt.

[Guest]

dec9 wrote:

The new people may not complain because they see how the forum software works and thus call it normal. Once something is deemed normal over a period of time it turns into a standard. But the standard is not normal because the bar was lowered without the new people fully knowing what it was like in the past.

Funny how this brings to mind many parallels in the software development realm...

[Guest]

dec9 wrote:

The lobbing of nukes between posters and Mods have pretty much abated. Seems more of a uneasy calm.

That does not mean they all have my respect yet.

[Guest]

Hence uneasy calm.

Buko. wrote:

dec9 wrote:

The lobbing of nukes between posters and Mods have pretty much abated. Seems more of a uneasy calm.

That does not mean they all have my respect yet.

[Guest]

That's boring... let's get some flame wars going!

Actually, I'm expecting a lock on this thread any time now (hopefully I'm wrong).  What harm it's causing to the forum's designated function, I have no idea, so I certainly wouldn't see the point of it..

You know, I think that's a good rule-of-thumb-- if off topic posts aren't disrupting the forum's function by sheer volume of lunacy (pushing relevant topics far down the page, and so on), what's the harm?  "Laissez-faire" style moderation is best.  IMO all we need mods for is to ensure relevant conversation can take place, and to prevent personal attacks or other incredibly stupid behavior.

[David_Powers]

Ansury wrote:

if off topic posts aren't disrupting the forum's function by sheer volume of lunacy (pushing relevant topics far down the page, and so on), what's the harm?

In general terms, I would agree. However, there has been a lot of lunacy, and the good points that some people have made here have been drowned out. The harm is that you're in danger of being listened to no more.

IMO all we need mods for is to ensure relevant conversation can take place, and to prevent personal attacks or other incredibly stupid behavior.

The vast majority of abuse reports come from this forum and the lounges.

[Guest]

Oh I don't disagree that there has been a lot of lunacy here at times, and if it'd genuinely drowning out relevant topics, as I'm sure it has at times-- start sending out warnings to cool it down and start locking posts (if really needed).

But at the moment (the last few weeks maybe even), this forum is slow enough that I just don't see a problem.

[Jochem van Dieten]

Ansury wrote:

But at the moment (the last few weeks maybe even), this forum is slow enough that I just don't see a problem.

I do. The OP of http://forums.adobe.com/thread/470150 should not have his thread degenerate into some discussion about the smell of cat food. Nor should http://forums.adobe.com/thread/475900 be used as a straw man for jabs at that we would all like to send to Jive or Adobe management, who don't read here anyway

[JayJhabrix]

jochemd wrote:

I do. The OP of http://forums.adobe.com/thread/470150 should not have his thread degenerate into some discussion about the smell of cat food. Nor should http://forums.adobe.com/thread/475900 be used as a straw man for jabs at that we would all like to send to Jive or Adobe management, who don't read here anyway

Get off your high horse... the OPs question was answered / was pointed in the right direction. If some of the members of this forum get into a bit of light-hearted banter, what's the problem. Same applies to your second example.

For god's sake, this is not the soulless Third Reich! Nor the erstwhile Soviet Union!! Nor the People's Republic of China!!! Nor, most certainly, George Orwell's, "1984".

Give it a break... people come in, answer questions.. something leads to something... there's a bit of kidding around. Kill that, you kill the forums. Haven't you been able to read between the lines? And see the general complaint? These forums were a kind of home, a meeting place where folks interacted, laughed and joshed and in the process passed on / imparted invaluable information. Your attitude is killing that.

It's become:

Question

Answer

Shut UP

(In this regard, one eminent mod, locked a thread i initiated as answered. I protested. He, graciously enough reopened the thread. My real answers came in subsequently. My point is: How dare he arbitrarily lock the thread in the first place?)

Well, my friend you're effectively shutting off all interaction and ruining the atmosphere with your Hitlerian behaviour. Heil!!!

[Kath-H]

you're effectively shutting off all interaction and ruining the atmosphere

Too late. Or maybe all the problems have solved themselves and everyone is now happy.

[Guest]

Tonight, I think we should all load in the car and drive to he nearest pasture to do some ole fashion cow tipping to blow off some steam and perk things up a bit.

[Phillip_M_Jones]

dec9 wrote:

Tonight, I think we should all load in the car and drive to he nearest pasture to do some ole fashion cow tipping to blow off some steam and perk things up a bit.

or tossing around like Frisbies, some cow chips. But they have to completely dried out.

[Guest]

Usually helps........

Was just testing the thread drift. It passed.

[S_D_A_]

Ya know this is what I don't understand about some of you regulars.

Who in the hell cares about the social/community aspect of these forums ?! Some people need a life !!

I sure as hell don't and I've been here probably longer than most of you (since '94 or '95 can't remember exactly). I just never did subscribe to the notion that these are a community platform, but simply for giving BASIC help and assistance to other users of Adobe products. Nothing less, nothing more.

For more detailed help, there are a plethora of free and commercial websites, so the "quality of answer" argument is moot, as these forums are really only for basic help|assistance.

I personally think that Adobe errered and should have never set up the Lounges. All one has to do is look at other companies of Adobe's size that have similar forums. There isn't any such social interaction going on and if people are volunteering to help out they do just that.

I agree with what Jochem is doing. These forums will function much more smoothly if all the noise is eliminated and the folks complaining would just do what the majority of others are doing, by making the best of a bad situation.

Post to help others in the product forums and leave the other social/community aspect for Facebook/Twitter or Friendfeed. This isn't the place anymore and probably never should have been in the first place.

The other is the sense of entitlement some of you seem to have, simply because you've been here for some time and the fact that you've bought some Adobe software. Bull Crap is all I have to say to you -- Grow up !

Why you ask ? Because social cliques have no part in this type of forum, and yes most of you are a clique.

One of the first times I posted here in a long time was this spring. Ramon tore into me because he didn't like my opinions; despite the fact that I never said one mean word to him in the beginning -- He started the entire thing. So yeah I have a gripe with him and everything he stands for in terms of these forums. So these cliques have to go and quite frankly none of you will be terribly missed by the people wanting or needing help. None of us are irreplaceable.

[Edited out personal attack]

[Phillip_M_Jones]

Check Apple's on forums

and Microsoft's NNTP forums

How about Mozilla's Forums especially the general Forum

Yes it true for Adobe forums are user to user, basic help. But this Forum particularly for is for complaints about the forum software.

Also, some of the subjects have degenerated to fussing, cussing and other unprofessional behavior. (This I might add you contributed some - and I am not without sin myself, though I have kept it to a minimum.)

While you may be only one, of the handful that would prefer to be a curmudgeonly; most people get more results, and retain more information, from a venue that has a human touch.

We are not robots. Your attitude fits perfectly with that Book/movie (1984?) by Orwell.

When you go to the Doctor, do you want one who greets you warmly ask what the matter and listens? Or do you prefer one that says, "what are you here for?" (acting as though he is getting indegestion just looking at you), check your pulse and BP; write a prescription and throws you out the door? I prefer the first. And if I got the second I would be looking for another ASAP

Thank you.

BTW: if that's the way you feel, why are you on this forum?

[S_D_A_]

BTW: if that's the way you feel, why are you on this forum?

Well Philip, definitely not for the social aspect that's for sure. I've been here helping out, time permitting for a long time.

Of course being self-employed means that I often burn the candle at both ends, and am guilty of posting answers at times, when I'm too tired and don't do the answers or the original posters justice. But hey I'm not perfect.

I'm here to offer help to people needing it on Adobe Products, assuming that I can help.

Often when doing so, I learn something from the likes of Zeno, Buko, John J. et al whom are masters at Photoshop. Same with some of the Premier/After Effects folks. Those are areas that I'm a beginner to low intermediate in, so  I'm always learning something.

What about you ?

[Phillip_M_Jones]

I'm not here for social aspect either. I'm here to help with what I can. But I don't mind a little occasional human interaction, either.  As the old saying goes, "all work and no play makes, billy a dull boy". And that that if ite all work and no human interaction, then become dull mentally your not as up on your game, like you should be. You don't exercise your mind enough, aand if you don't do that then you not as sharp mentally as you should be.