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[Locked] No perpetual licenses are you serious?

Forum|Forum|12 years ago
May 7, 2013
109 replies
962945 views

I just head that Adobe was planning to abandon its perpetual license in favor of an on line only rental program. At first I thought that this must be a joke. I have been using adobe products for 18 years. Primarily Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign. I am currently an owner of CS 6 Master collection and obviously do upgrade my products and have consistently done so over the years. I am not connected to the internet full time and in fact my work computer is never directly connected to the internet. So how does this work? Is adobe now forcing me to connect to the internet - it seems that this is the case.

In regards to upgrade cycles, I dont want to rent my software and be tied to a rental agreement. I want to upgrade when I choose, not rent my software like some kind of loaner program!

I want to purchase the software then not worry about it. For instance when I travel, I dont want to be bogged down with downloads and upgrades chewing up my bandwidth. I have traveled to many places where internet access is very limited. Downloading from a wireless card in China is painful, I dont want to be bogged down with no software or large megabyte downloads costing me a fortune on the other side of the planet.

Adobe I know that I am just one person and you will probably not listen to me but did someone ask? No one asked me about this. How simple could this be - I want to buy the software then use it when I want where I want, is this too much to ask?

Please let me continue to use this software in the way that I have used it for so long. If others wish to have the creative cloud then great! More power to them, don't alienate your other users. Please provide both alternatives.

Best regards - Matt

Creative Cloud

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MyNameIsKeegan

Participant

I agree. I'm am going to start animating and I will not put up with this! Let's make this thread become famous and then we can get Adobe to change! The free trial doesn't even work... Anyways, ADOBE I WILL NOT BUY YOUR SOFTWARE I'M FINDING BETTER SOFTWARE WITH NO MONTHLY PAYMENTS! Adobe thinks losing a few customers is fine but wait until this becomes popular. This thread will someday get 100 likes! And will be on the news. My emotions: This thread: Adobe:

davez

Known Participant

I have been considering this whole "rent your software" concept since I first heard about it a while back.....My kneejerk reaction was the same.....RIDICULOUS!

But, looking at it......Lets say for a moment that a legit upgrade from one version to another is $375 as someone posted. And lets say that the upgrade alone were on a payment plan for you rather than all up front. Let's say you buy it on a no-interest credit card and have to make the minimum payments equal to that $31.25 a month.

Now, if you love the upgrade, you continue to use it.And pay monthly until paid off in 12 months. Then you own it. No more free upgrades, etc. It is what it is. You like it enough to buy the next upgrade ,again on the same payment plan, etc.

But lets say that for some reason your needs change and you decide that you want to go FCP, Vegas, AVID or whatever after 3 months and dump Premiere, like some here have threatened to do.....

You will have $90 and change into the upgrade after 3 months but still have to pay for that remaining $285 even if you no longer use the software because you have that obligation. You owe that entire chunk of money.

In the same way, paying it all up front, whether a $375 upgrade or a $2,000 suite, you lock yourself in to paying that amount NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS going forward. After 2 years of no upgrades, your PC tanks a motherboard and CPU and you decide to upgrade to Windows 13.x to compliment your new PC.... and your "perpetually licensed" software no longer works? You lose that money. Decide to switch platforms? You lose that money. Decide to stop editing video for 8 months while you ponder the meaning of life? You lose that money. You leave now, abandon the software, and you are out that same $2,000 regardless.

Yeah, you can "give it to a family member" or "use it for unimportant stuff on the side"...but come on....we all know how that goes. It's a hoarder mentality.. I have it. I have that piece of software from 10 years ago somewhere on my shelf with a "perpetual license" , II own it outright. But is it as useful as it once was to me? Still, I keep it on the shelf. Collecting dust is all it does, but dammit, I own it while it is doing so....LOL

With the subscription plan, you at least can make a clean break from Adobe and the expense at some point if you want WITHOUT having that full amount into it in the short run. Ok, a fairly lame "rpo" for most here......as time wears on you have more money into it, but still not as much as paying it all up front and then paying for upgrades along the way and you can walk away at anytime.

If the price for the subscription for the full blown suite is $60/month , that is $720 a year.....how many years would that amount have paid for, for a full suite? 2 or 3 right?

I guess if you wanted to go to 4, 5, 6 years without ever updating your software, then the numbers change some. But not drastically. The averaged per month cost is still there.

Considering the costs of updates (assuming you would have wanted to stay current or NEEDED the new tweaks etc offered in the pay-for-updates model), I think its a wash. Scary, yes....because its a mental thing: "If I buy this software now for $2,000 I can have a perpetual license and use it forever for free! Versus having to make a monthly payment FOREVER".....But how many folks REALLY will use one version of any software product "FOREVER".... Anyone still running Premiere 4? I have it on my shelf. I own it....I could reinstall it, if I were still running windows 2.....LOL Desktop computers change, camera codecs change etc etc etc . With the CC model, if you keep subscribed, in 5 years you have invested $3,600 into the software but you will ALSO have gotten all the updates and improvements.

People have always griped about paying for updates too, the thinking being "once I buy a piece of software with a perpetual license, I should get updates forever too!" And you know that can't work.

Actually, if software were handled like any other product.....new cars for instance...where would we be? When you buy a new car and drive it home, only to find 4 months later that the manufacturer has a new faster , more powerful engine....do you just pay a few hundred dollars and get that new engine and all the trimmings? Of course not. So why do people expect software to be that way?

So I see CC as an improvement in some way....ensuring we are up to date and have all the cool tools.......And Adobe can enforce their licenses and earn money for what they are selling rather than have pirates using it for free.

OF COURSE the big caveat here is whether Adobe will step up and make great improvements available regularly to make it all worth it. But hopefully in 5 years, we will have a much improved , much more capable software than we would have the other way.

I dunno...I think the biggest "losers" in this change would be the folks pirating the software.....and I doubt Adobe cares very much about losing those folks. Premiere hardly needs "the exposure" anymore...its a widely accepted professional tool with a great following. People doing this "just as a hobby" and using software "forever" can stay at CS6 (which is pretty robust anyways) and use it "forever". In that market, users are not prone to justifying a couple grand in spending for a hobby any more than they will be able to justify spreading that couple grand over monthly payments for CC. So those folks, and perhaps me included, may need to look elsewhere for a viable editing tool that we "can afford".

That all said, for those who just bought CS6 in the last year or two, planning on having it for a bit, and who want updates for camera codecs like XAVC and being told "sorry, no more updates", it's a bitter pill. But there had to be a cut off point in changing over to this model.

eschelar

Inspiring

#1 - you didn't do your math correctly. CC is $50/mo and $600/yr. The reference to $375/yr is for guys like me who are using one of the suites which have been available for quite a few years. I use an intermediate suite called "Production Premium". Before that I used another suite called "Web Premium". Those packages were $375 for an upgrade. Full Master Collection was quite a bit more, but it's important to note that I do not have Master Collection, nor do I need it or want it. And I certainly haven't budgeted for it.

#2 - CC costs more in two ways. The first is that it requires you to use either the bargain basement package or the full collection. This is a change in their policy that I do not agree with because it pushes their software back out of my budget. When I'm at work, I use the company's licenses. I own Production Premium for my personal use. Quite frankly, I don't use it all that much at home since I am at work quite a lot. I don't mind paying $375 after nearly 2 years of use to keep my license up to date and my feature set current. It starts to get a bit ridiculous when I am asked to triple that to $600/yr for a bunch of software I don't even want. That was the idea of the intermediate product suites. Adobe has enough customers and their product costs enough that it's reasonable to see mid-level packages. Sony sells their video software in around 6 different tiers, all the way from beginner to experienced home user to serious amateur to 3 levels of Pro with accompanying software. Adobe is now: PS and LR or *everything*. This screws over everyone who owns PS + AI, everyone who owns PS + Premiere, *DEFINITELY* everyone who owns Pemiere + Speedgrade and AE, etc, all the way down the line. The only type of customer this is useful for is a business user. Do Adobe think that personal users and people who don't need the full package are no longer worth their attention? Do they just assume we're going to pirate it anyways, so might as well just let them do that and make all the legitimate paying customers carry that burden by increasing the on-year costs?

The second is that the software breaks if you don't keep paying. This is a half-step shy of extortion. I've got projects that are 2-3 years old and more that I've come back to to pull clips from. With Adobe CC, even if I wasn't using Adobe anymore, I'd need to have paid them $1800 to keep access to those work files for 3 years. Utter insanity.

#3 - You give the self-defeating argument about "if you don't like it". Well here is how that works. If you don't like it, you can stop paying. You end up having paid less for software you didn't want. And all the projects that you worked on while you were evaluating are *GONE FOREVER*.

Give me a break. No company builds their business plan around software that they will use, then stop using. The vast majority of Adobe users are long-term users (which is also why the "first year" of Adobe after coming in from CS is totally meaningless). I control software licenses at my work and for my personal use. For both of these, I view costs in 5-10 year chunks and off into perpetuity. Throw me a bone for a small discount for one year, but increase my overall cost over 10 years by a factor of 3 and I'll notice.

If I don't want to keep using my CC, I cancel and *LOSE ACCESS TO ALL MY FILES FOREVER*. These work files are worth more to me than the software - certainly for a business, this is true by definition. Those work files represent monies earned that must be more than the cost of the software (unless you don't understand ROI). For personal use, this is probably also true, but in a less direct way. If I don't want to keep using my Production Premium CS6, I can stop using it, and keep using it as long as I like. Or if I don't think the software was any good, I can sell it and recover some of my money. You can do that you know... But at least I understand the risks and I could wait 3, 4, 5 years or more to make my decision and still have a product worth something. I've seen people buy older software. I helped someone do that just last month. It was cheaper for them to buy an older version for use with their startup company than to do CC. I think they got AI CS4 for $79 on Ebay. Assuming they use it for 5 years, that's $79 for 5 years vs $1100 for 5 years using the subsciption model. Nice.

#4 - nobody keeps using software forever. But in business, budgets tend to require a lot of work to change. I look at things from the point of view of money in the bank to how far I can stretch it for *every single project I need to do*. I look at how much something is likely to cost, then secure my budget and see how far I can stretch that budget.

You say that after 5 years you will have invested $3000 (math please!) and gotten all the updates. Wow. That's a compelling argument... except for the fact that I have been using Adobe for a while now.

Purchased in 2011, through to 2016 pricing for Production Premium (it wasn't as smooth as that, so there's some assumption that things remain the same) to CS8 for my personal license): Initial buy-in $400 (I got in via educational license). Upgrade in 2013 to CS6. $375. Upgrade in 2015 to CS7 $375. Upgrade in 2017 to CS8. $375 = $1525.

Contrast to CC pricing: $3000.

#5 - why would we expect software to be different from cars? Uhm. I'll give you a hint. Choose any file on your computer. Control-C, Control-V. What just happened? Yeah. Now do that with your car.

How did that work? Nothing? Yeah, that's why software is different from cars. If you send out a car that has a major flaw in it, sending out a bug-fix is *VERY DIFFICULT*. For software, there are challenges, but it's not a lot more difficult than a software distribution model for initial purchases. If you have that worked out, I'm pretty sure you can figure it out. But let's be totally clear about this too. Nobody is asking to have CC for free. Or even any updates beyond the basic support for the package we bought. I'm still using CS6 both at home and in the office. We've had updates to Camera Raw. But my Premiere still can't autosync audio like CC. I do it by hand. Or I could use PluralEyes. No biggy. Before CS3, I used PS 7.0 because I didn't have a strong enough computer for the CS packages and they didn't have enough "bells and whistles" to get me to embrace the performance hit. Not really a big problem.

If my budget doesn't support having all the latest bells and whistles, I can live with that. Sadly, for CC, you either *MUST* take the bells and whistles (and bugs that go along with it) or you lose access to your files. WTF?

#6 - How much Adobe improves over the next 5 years. Spoken like a true newbie. I've been using Adobe for quite a while. The number of things I do in PS (my primary software skill) that I can't do in PS 7.0, CS3 (my favorite version before CS6) or CS4 with actions:

Content Aware fill. Adobe Camera Raw Clarity slider (I like it). Smart Objects (they were around in CS3).

Yep. Three things.

Now that's a bit silly of course because I do use and benefit from the software in more ways than this, but those two represent the value of CS6 to me. But those to me represent value worth paying good money for.

What is there in PS CC? Adobe Camera Raw adjustment layer. Yummy. But the workaround is to just open the image in ACR at the beginning. I have actually done this. Gone back into Bridge, ACR, exported another version of the image, brought it into the main working PSD and put it on the old version of the original image, with several adjustment layers above it. No big deal.

Is that $1200 worth of value for me to have been using CC for the past 2 years? Nope.

#7 - Where is Adobe pushing us middle guys? Well quite frankly, it's pushing me to other software and to piracy. I made a huge effort when I was in Uni and again when I went back to Uni to get legitimate software, but I did use pirate software for a while. I know how it's done and I know how it works. I made the effort to get it legit because I wanted to support Adobe. I felt good about Adobe and wanted to pay them money. I still do. I just don't have enough spare cash to match the requirements of CC. And my feeling towards Adobe has changed. It's not just the price hike that makes it not work. It's also the fact that Adobe has taken away their attention to us middle guys. No Production Suite for you! If you use more than PS/LR, your only choice is to go Full CC. Not only that, but the card they hold in their hand to get us to pay more is basically extortion by holding our own work files for ransom.

That's going to make it a lot easier to make the switch away from paying Adobe because I want to into not paying for it because Adobe is being evil.

Back in 2012, things were so bright. My software was all fully legit. I had a great phone with Adobe PS Touch and it was awesome. Now Adobe has turned things dark and confrontational. They have long black fingers that are clawing at my wallet with one hand while the other hand wraps its fingers around the throat of my work and personal creative projects. PS Touch has been abandoned and is on autopilot since mid 2013 and the newer version requires CC.

Those are not the conditions that elicit a "wallet-opening" response from me.

davez

Known Participant

WOW! A lot to consider....but I did my best...LOL

"#1 - you didn't do your math correctly. CC is $50/mo and $600/yr. The reference to $375/yr is for guys like me who are using one of the suites which have been available for quite a few years. I use an intermediate suite called "Production Premium". Before that I used another suite called "Web Premium". Those packages were $375 for an upgrade. Full Master Collection was quite a bit more, but it's important to note that I do not have Master Collection, nor do I need it or want it. And I certainly haven't budgeted for it. "

So you are complaining that a suite that came out years back is no longer upgradeable? Maybe i misunderstand? If that is the case, why is that different from any other software? I remember Production Premium......and I agree that Adobe had numerous "suites" etc....confusing at one point to me.....likely part of this new approach is trying to simplify the packages. Doing so simplifies upgrade paths and customer service requirements for Adobe. understandable. My math still holds...... the full monty is $599 a year or an individual app is $239 a year if you do not want the whole master suite.

"#2 - CC costs more in two ways. The first is that it requires you to use either the bargain basement package or the full collection. "

Why is that "new"? You could get slimmed down packs before as well .....or individual apps......or the full monty. I do see your point if you want say half of the full monty versus just one....but the price is lower for the full monty in that case.

"This is a change in their policy that I do not agree with because it pushes their software back out of my budget. When I'm at work, I use the company's licenses. I own Production Premium for my personal use. Quite frankly, I don't use it all that much at home since I am at work quite a lot. I don't mind paying $375 after nearly 2 years of use to keep my license up to date and my feature set current. It starts to get a bit ridiculous when I am asked to triple that to $600/yr for a bunch of software I don't even want. "

I can see the not wanting to pay for stuff you dont want, but in relaity with any upgrade, you usually do just that. It is just that you decide when you upgrade. Well, frankly, I suppose it is partly Adobe deciding that it costs more to keep casual/random users than to lose them. Remember, Adobe needs suustainable revenue to keep product improvemnets coming......your $375 every few years randomly is not enough. They have made a business decision to offer what they offer. You can still vote with your wallet.

"This screws over everyone who owns PS + AI, everyone who owns PS + Premiere, *DEFINITELY* everyone who owns Pemiere + Speedgrade and AE, etc, all the way down the line. "

But those packages were dated anyways......and again, what software is INDEFINATELY upgradeable? None that I have ever used. All have some sort of end of life. And again, putting aside the fact that Adobe up till now has been one of the most flexible (as far as upgrade paths) packages around, that doesnt mean that Adobe cant change that tact when it stops being a revenue builder for them.

"Do Adobe think that personal users and people who don't need the full package are no longer worth their attention? "

I think that Adobe thinks that they are targetting theior tools toward professionals. Professionals, as you said, will not have much of an issue with this change. You keep saying there is this huge increase in costs, but I dont see it. Pay a huge amount upfront for the software and then uograde for a few hundred bucks every couple years really does seem to pan out to be similar to the costs in the subscrition plan...UNLESS you are running a pirated or "borrowed" copy of the software to begin with and the initial investment was not an issue.

"The second is that the software breaks if you don't keep paying. This is a half-step shy of extortion. I've got projects that are 2-3 years old and more that I've come back to to pull clips from. With Adobe CC, even if I wasn't using Adobe anymore, I'd need to have paid them $1800 to keep access to those work files for 3 years. "

Yeah, I don;t know about that one.If you "arent using Adobe anymore" after three years, how exactly are you keeping access to those files? You ARE using it by having it installed on yoour machine and by keeping that option open. If you are using another platform, you have the option of exporting the edits to another format and saving the raw files.....that doesnt change. But to keep access to the Adobe workfiles and timelines? Sure...you need to have the product installed. That is using it.

"I control software licenses at my work and for my personal use. "

What this new subscription format DOES change is how some people can have the software at work and "borrow" a copy for use at home......I think the subscription plans dont allow that right? SO I can see those folks being ticked, but really its not really a 100% legit use of the software "2nd computer" policy IMHO.

" You say that after 5 years you will have invested $3000 (math please!) "

$599 a year x 5 years is $3,000 for the full month.

"Purchased in 2011, through to 2016 pricing for Production Premium (it wasn't as smooth as that, so there's some assumption that things remain the same) to CS8 for my personal license): Initial buy-in $400 (I got in via educational license). Upgrade in 2013 to CS6. $375. Upgrade in 2015 to CS7 $375. Upgrade in 2017 to CS8. $375 = $1525.

Contrast to CC pricing: $3000."

Yeah, if you got the initial software as an "educational discount" then you got a HUGE break in price for the initial buyin. Do you still technically qualify for the educational license? Because they have strict policies on who can get that. Unels you are running a school or are a student you do not qualify....and after your status of "educational" expires, the license is suppsoed to comvert to a standard. I can see why someone who has been getting the break all along might be ticked...but look at it this way, you got a much better deal than many who paid full price. And you ALSO assumed that you would be able to keep ugrading on that educational license forever....not a good assumption whether for business or personal use...licenses and software are always likely to change.

"#6 - How much Adobe improves over the next 5 years. Spoken like a true newbie. I've been using Adobe for quite a while. "

LOL, friend, I have been using Premiere since just about its first version, when all it was good for was offlining. Been a user since. Up until CS4 or so, it was a sketchy buggy prorgam but I stuck with it even when the MAC geeks were pushing FC as "the only real video tool" because it ran on a MAC.....LOL I stuck with Premiere on a PC. The payoff has been CS5/6. Improvements came in fits and starts as technology changed. No longer needing to have a seperate outboard video processor for editing was a MAJOR advance, and that put places like Matrox almost out of business.

I used SPeedRazor for some time at work years ago.....that was a very very pricey software package and was robust enough but not perfect....it was competing alongside AVID, FC and Premiere. Those three are still around and Speed Razor is gone. Why? Because they couldnt keep up with advancements and improve their software fast enough. The thousands spent on that software and updates went down the crapper when they closed their doors. And by the way, that was a MAJOR sea change .....yet we survived....e had dumped off our sub masters to tape backups and were abel to easily rebuild stuff as needed under Premiere. That would be the same tact one could use here.....backup and submaster stuff so that if you change editing software you cna rebuild stuff with just some effort.

Newbie indeed. LOL

"#7 - Where is Adobe pushing us middle guys? Well quite frankly, it's pushing me to other software and to piracy."

Piracy is exactly why the yare doing what the yare doing, plus trimming their support models.

"Spare cash" keeps getting mentioned.......Well, if your main skill.use is PS, that is available for $239 a year or $20 a month. How much do you spend on your cell bill or other toys? And you cannot spend $20 for a professional grade tool that you could make money with?

"I made a huge effort when I was in Uni and again when I went back to Uni to get legitimate software, but I did use pirate software for a while. I know how it's done and I know how it works. I made the effort to get it legit because I wanted to support Adobe. I felt good about Adobe and wanted to pay them money. I still do. I just don't have enough spare cash to match the requirements of CC. And my feeling towards Adobe has changed. It's not just the price hike that makes it not work. It's also the fact that Adobe has taken away their attention to us middle guys. No Production Suite for you! If you use more than PS/LR, your only choice is to go Full CC. Not only that, but the card they hold in their hand to get us to pay more is basically extortion by holding our own work files for ransom."

Well, isn't that nice of you...to do what everyone else is doing...paying for your software.....LOL....Heads up: No one will give you medal for being honest....it's what we should all be doing anyways. Using pirated software for evaulation purposes is one thing...but long term? How do you justfy that is ok? Instead of stealing Adobe's software, pay for another software that does what you want it to do and is cheaper....if you can find it.

"That's going to make it a lot easier to make the switch away from paying Adobe because I want to into not paying for it because Adobe is being evil. Back in 2012, things were so bright. My software was all fully legit. I had a great phone with Adobe PS Touch and it was awesome. Now Adobe has turned things dark and confrontational. They have long black fingers that are clawing at my wallet with one hand while the other hand wraps its fingers around the throat of my work and personal creative projects. PS Touch has been abandoned and is on autopilot since mid 2013 and the newer version requires CC."

I assume you mean "switch away from Adobe to another piece of software"........well, like i said, if you find software that does what Adobe stuff does cheaper, go for it. I hear WIndows has a nice built in video editor and paint app...and its FREE wuth windows! LOL.

Just don't pirate Adobe's stuff and try to justify it by saying they alienated you as a customer so its OK to steal it and complain about how they now want to structure their licneses so as to thwart piracy.....that is the epitome of the entitlement types. LOL

RobertoBlake

Inspiring

Good businesses shift with the times even when their users don't. Companies that fail to do so end up like KODAK and BLOCKBUSTER.

Boxed or Perpetual License software in the Creative Services Industry can't scale anymore with how the technology surrounding the industry and the industry itself is working. It's much the same problem with those going to school for Graphic Design. They are being taught by professors that haven't used the latest software or competed in the industry and designed for new technology and marketing trends. This is why many are shifting into online learning from Lynda and Udemy and Kelby One and paying a subscription or going to YouTube.

The argument is that the competitors aren't doing it, but that is false, they all are following Adobe and just haven't gone ALL IN... not yet. AutoDesk has had subscriptions for a while now and Corel has entered that as well. AutoDesk subscriptions are much more expensive that Adobe and Corel is much cheaper. 3D anv VFX people love the subscription model for AutoDesk because if you think Adobe is expensive you have no idea... VFX is insanely expensive and 3D...::shutters::

Corel is much cheaper for boxed software and subscriptions, 25/mo and 200/year, but its also less widely used (aside from Digital Painting and Concept Art) and thus doesn't land people who want to work in the Design industry or get Freelance Jobs a lot of money. Clients do care about what software you use. Employers certainly do, because it is a matter of "Workflow" something hobbyist don't really understand sometimes.

It's simple, if your intention is to be the best like no one ever was, you find a way to make it happen. If you only use Photoshop, guess what it's now 10/month and you get lightroom. That is overkill for a hobbyist. I don't think I've had a hobby that cheap before, even when I played Magic the Gathering. You could make that money back on a Photo Blog for Christ sakes. Let alone if you snap something for a friend or family member.

The Full Creative Cloud Subscription averages out to the equivalent of $1.66/day less than $2/day. You could find that in seat cushions, pan handle for it, give up soft drinks or not tip when you when you eat out and come up with that money. It's not a hardship.

Everyone says this is bad for Freelancers. I'm a freelancer, I've been on the subscription model for almost 3 years, gave my physical licenses to family and couldn't be happier. It hasn't hurt my cashflow because I know how to run my business correctly and the passive income side covers that as well as many of the other monthly and yearly cost associated with running my business. It's that simple.

If you have problems finding $2/day in extra cash flow it may have something to do with your business model, not Adobe's.

eschelar

Inspiring

What about users who own a personal copy for personal projects. I use myself as an example. At work, I use the company's license.

But for my personal use, I own CS6 Production Premium. It was a perfect match for my interests and skillset. I also got to learn and self-improve with it.

However, in the past 2 years, I've done very little with it. Because of work, I don't have a lot of time to go out shooting much and my camera kit is usually in the office anyhow. I don't mind having software that I have paid for but I don't use it much, just like I don't mind having a camera that I don't use for personal enjoyment that much (I have 4 cameras at this time that I don't use much). But when I need them, they are there.

For me, switching to CC represents a tripling of cost (assuming a 1.5-2 year upgrade routine - I bootlegged through university, but even still, I only upgraded 7.0 to CS3, CS3 to CS4 and CS4 to CS5.5 (legit) and CS6 (legit)). And this was money that came from my pocket when I felt that I had enough to merit an upgrade.

Now though, my office copy is CC, and my personal license is CS6. I have told Adobe three times already that I am ready to pay for CS7 Production Premium and will not enter into a CC arrangement because I don't want to get locked in to paying vs *not being able to use it at all* for when/if I might have to do an employment switch or major change in location and money runs low. Of course they will not budge because this model means that if half their users quit, they are still making 50% more revenue, so why would they.

But do you really think it is worth it to me as a consumer to have to pay 2-3 times more for the exact same service?

Lots of people can afford it - indeed, at this time, I can probably afford it. But there are some rocks in the river up ahead for me that might mean that within 6 months to a year, I won't be in a position to pay at all. Should I then be relegated to the "sorry about your bad luck, by the way *NO ADOBE FOR YOU*" after having supported the company with my thousands of dollars?

If you think that's the correct way for things to work, you've been smoking the wrong pipeweed my friend.

RobertoBlake

Inspiring

You're clearly and intelligent person so I'm sure you will understand what I'm about to say. If you value something, you will pay for it. If you want something enough and value it enough you will commit to a means of affording it.

I don't work a 9 to 5 job anymore, I'm in a much more cash flow sensitive situation as a result than most of the people commenting on this forum based on what they've said. You're concerned about 6 months down the road, of all people I get that. But you're making a decision about an investment from the fear of lack or the fear of possible failure. "What if I can't afford it 6 months from now?" Really. Are you planning to afford rent, utilities and food 6 months from now?

Why plan for failure? Because I know I need to afford things my actions are dictated by that to create the success necessary.
While I can imagine a scenario where I couldn't afford the subscription I've created contingencies to avoid that. And I know there is little chance that once the 30-90 day clock starts that I couldn't turn it around.

I'm sure you are an intelligent enough person as are most people here that you could find a way to come up with $60.

The same way you'd come up with $350-500 for a one time upgrade.

As to NO ADOBE FOR YOU, I'm not on the pipeweed here my friend, that would be you. The bank that covers your house or apartment isn't going to let you skate on loyalty after paying them 10's of thousands of dollars over the years, the same for your car dealership/ car note, electricity company phone company.

NO COMPANY/BUSINESS OPERATES THAT WAY, and that is why they are still in business.

Software at the higher end is moving to a utility model, its a painful shift, but I remember all the gripes when Photography went Digital too. All the crying and nashing of teeth from people who invested in wet laps and equipment. We evolve or we die, it can be simpler than that.

Kabinator

Participant

The price for a year, and all the programmes a user gets isn't that bad. If it were an outright payment. But it's an annual fee. Why do you ask us to pay so much each year/month? Not everyone can afford it. It's a good way to loose customers.

I see the creative fields going similar to how the gaming industry went, only much worse. Games used to come as one. No extras, no micro payments. Now they're coming as a cheap game that you need to spend lots on to get all the extras.

In the creative field, at least for Adobe, it seems like we need to spend the money for the program that comes as one, and the buy it new every year. At least give us a discount for continuing our subscription. What we really want is to be able to buy them outright, but if subscription renewal weren't so expensive as buying the license in the first place, I'm sure more would continue to use the software..

StormMarc

Participating Frequently

ADOBE called me the other day. It was a pleasant lady from India asking me why I have not joined the cloud. I proceeded to unload on her all of my objections. She listened politely and then told me she would pass them on and hopefully the company could find a solution to my concerns.

At one point in the conversation however she did say that Adobe has chosen to go this route, implying they will stay the course and I will miss out on all of the great new features by sticking with my dead CS6 software. I countered that as a customer I will choose to go another route and I’m currently looking at alternative software as are many other former Adobe devotees.

My hope is that they come to their senses before it’s too late. I’m using Premiere CS6 which is a decent program but it needs some improvement like the ones I see in the new CC versions and I will not wait forever if they don’t switch to a more reasonable position on purchasing their software.

The reality is that there are plenty of good editing programs available and I refuse to join a never ending software renting scheme with no reasonable way to obtain a perpetual license. That is my main concern regardless of how the deflecting marketing speak attempts to convince me otherwise. Even AVID is offering a perpetual license as an alternative to their new rental model.

ADOBE software has gone from a perpetual licensing system to a perpetual payment system and in my view that benefits one party—ADOBE.

Ascenda_MCL

Participant

I believe the CC business model is here to stay and to become the new normal in a not to distant future. Someone somewhere must have done the maths and it must be conclusive because Adobe is sticking to it and is developing the concept even more with its new Photography CC package. This tells me that the future LR6 will probably be cloud based only as well. Too bad I will not buy it if that is the case.

So...we may not like it (I don't and I am not on the CC for that reason), but I can understand other people's point of view that prefer or value the CC model when they do their own maths.

For me and hopefully for thousands of non-professional enthusiasts or teachers that make $0 from using these tools, the CC without the possibility to own the software at some point (basically when I decide I don't want to rent it anymore) is a no go. Too risky as it may become clearly unaffordable and my work may end up being lost after all.

The weight of those thousands of people may however be nothing compared to attracting small and medium (and large) businesses to the Cloud model. And if this prediction is correct then the future for the Adobe fan hobbyists is not going to be so great I am afraid.

But with any bad news usually come new opportunities. Don't know about designer software and video edition but as far as photography is concerned there are already good enough alternatives out there for the non pros like myself. I do not have to use Ps to make my pictures look stunning (assuming I am good enough as a photographer which is still to be confirmed :-) ). I can use more photography-minded software that do a pretty good job IMHO. Maybe we should let Adobe become a business to business company instead if they want to. That is their choice and their right after all. And maybe us, the non-pro I mean, should stay well clear of their products not because they suck but because we can probably do something good enough, as non-pro, with alternative software already available and already filling a good portion of the gap. And maybe that is the hidden message i.e.: "if you are a pro and make money thanks to our products then the CC model is probably acceptable to you. If you are not a pro, we don't recommend you buy our products at all, period. If you believe the competition cannot bring you the top notch quality that our products are providing you with, you are welcome to subscribe to the Cloud - we are telling you it is clearly not reasonable for a non-pro though but you are a big boy/girl after all so it is up to you. However if you are that demanding a person that you can only work with the best of the best tools out there maybe you are such a perfectionist that you should turn yourself into a professional after all and start making money from it..." how's that sound ?

At least that is how I translate their marketing garbage. In other words if we, non-pro, want to use pro products we shut up and buy into their strategy because it is not going to change anytime soon. Again I don't know about the other creative fields so my thinking may be wrong for these but as far as photography is concerned there are other software out there that are becoming truly very good and more focused. I would miss LR though that is for sure but nothing is irreplaceable, is it ?

John__SLS_Publicity_

Participating Frequently

I suggest anyone like me who does NOT wish to take the CC route completes the survey link Adobe are sending out making it clear we don't want it..

FrannieKN

Participating Frequently

I wasn't invited to complete it, but I'm curious... what is the survey's focus?

John__SLS_Publicity_

Participating Frequently

Reply to FrannieKN's post

Although stuck at CS5 at present I am a registered suite owner which is perhaps why I got picked.

A very detailed, comprehensive, survey with lots of questions biased towards knowledge of CC with a scale of about 7 options from Agree fully to No Knowledge of whether you had heard of it, were you likely to switch to it and if not why not. I answered truthfully with a yes where I had heard of the advantages of CC (there are many if you can afford it for life) but whenever there was an opportunity to comment on why I will never take it up I did so.

My reason for not taking it is primarily that I cannot guarantee to always have the money available for a monthly subscription due to variable cash-flow levels and knowledge that at some time in the future there is a risk I might need to take a month or two out of monthly rentals. Therefore for me being able to save up and make one-off purchases so as to always have access to the products in the suite, even if they are not the latest version, has to be my route forward as it has been in the past; 100% long-term access means more to me than features I have never had access to. I probably will jump up to CS6 soon as I now have a MAC (so need a MAC version of the products I already use with Windows) but that will be it unless at some time in the future they release a CS7 purchase option. I would switch to CC if there was an escape and retain option to download and freeze at that version level after say 18, 24 or even 36 months of payments (Like an old style HP agreement) and if they add that option in I would envisage many doubters would convert, it is the no fee no product/no escape route with Adobe that small business/private hobby users can't commit to for the long term.

JennConcept

Participant

So many people wouldn't have a problem if Adobe just kept selling there perpetual license and then in addition have the option for a subscription. So the customer can choose either or. But seems like greed runs everything. I might as well purchase a Mac and use a program like this: 10 reasons to download this free Illustrator alternative today | Ad feature | Creative Bloq . Since it totes that it's better than adobe anyways (I can't speak from experience since I don't own a Mac to try it) what I've been using though it a free software like photoshop: GIMP - The GNU Image Manipulation Program . It's taken a bit to get used to but I haven't yet used the program to it full potential (just for digital painting and to me this program gives me the same experience as Photoshop). So it's possible that Adobe will loose a big chunk of customers and slowly wilt away and die, unless they give the consumer more options.

pik80

Known Participant

Affinity sounds really interesting, thanks for telling us about it. I have started using iDraw on my Mac and iPad which I have been quite happy with. Yes, there are some features missing at the moment (symbol sprayer, full Wacom tablet support, etc.) but there are several things I like better then Illustrator as well. The latest updates they did this year had big improvements over where the program was last year and expect them to continue to eat into Illustrators lead quickly. in the mean time I can still use CS6 if I need it.

OwnForever

Participant

I applaud Adobe's decision to OFFER the Creative Cloud, but I condemn their decision to FORCE it upon us. I originally was a downright hater, but my opinions reversed after I heard an Adobe staff member saying, in answer to an "I cant afford this" remark, that after a year or so you have a completely different product. While I am a happy CC user, I know that CC is not for everyone, and there are very many who would be much happier with a perpetual license. While Creative Cloud opened the world of Adobe to me, it did precisely the opposite for many others. I hope Adobe will come to their senses and resume development of the Creative Suite.

pik80

Known Participant

Except, of course, you don't have a completely new product within a year. What you have is a slightly modified product with small insignificant improvements.

bitm07

Inspiring

There appears to be a new subscription version of the Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements, that includes 125GB of cloud storage and automatic updates in the offing.

Adobe Photoshop Elements 12 - Buying guide

Scotty2541

Participating Frequently

Oh, thrills. Like I can't get that anywhere else for a few pennies.

Apparently some sellers still have earlier versions. Both unopened and used. Buy it once and use it for as long as you want. Not the 'continue to buy it even when support and upgrades are not needed or wanted' sales model.

Scotty2541

Participating Frequently

Well, this just made my decision on what I will recommend to management.

After over a year of building up to a point where we can get a real tool and stop using Notepad++, the pricing model for this is not what were are looking for.

And given the increased poor stability of the CS products as I have moved from CS3 forward, I also don't see this as a good recommendation.

Michaeltm-T7FupN

Participating Frequently

Just canceled my creative cloud subscription. Saddly I am paying the penalty to ditch the service. Still I am happy to get off the Adobe train. I only signed on to it for newer version of Dreamweaver, but only installed Dreamweaver and avoided installing the other products like Photoshop, Ilustrator and Indesign. I didn't want to get trapped into having to keep on the Adobe train and was always looking for way off. I'm pretty sure I have found other alternatives that will work for me. I will just continue to use CS6 untill I can't. Any clients I have, have been informed I will only accept CS6 formats. Seems to be alot of people out there thinking the same thing. Sad, as I had always liked adobe products and will miss them down the road.

Mike

eschelar

Inspiring

yeah, we had the same thing. Of the 90 or so companies we deal with on a regular basis for exchanging artwork, only 3 of them are using CC and we only had a file we couldn't access because of it once. We installed a demo on a test computer and saved the format to CS6 compatible and have not had another problem with this since.

Two of the three companies I know of that used CC were using pirated versions and have since stopped using CC, reverting instead to CS6.

Interesting that it used to be that Adobe's permissiveness towards piracy and cracks was the key to gaining market dominance, resulting in more paying customers when these people grew up (and saved up)... now their policy towards CC is creating no forward goal for those users to save up for and is rapidly eroding that market dominance that they got because of rampant piracy...

This results in less pirates because of less market dominance.

12 million paying customers in the days before CC -> 1.8 million users with CC -> ?

What's this trend going to look like in 5 years time? Are people going to hang on to their aging CS6 packages?

Will they become part of the slowing trend to upgrade to CC?

Who will step up to fill Adobe's shoes? or will their "Suite" mentality fade away while the fragmented choices take over the market?

Aegis_Kleais

Inspiring

1.8m licenses, many of which are on first year promo pricing. When the hammer drops, the pain comes with it. And then, invariably, a greedy monopoly like Adobe will raise rates and put the screws to them even more.

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