Create New "Print" document in InDesign Transparency Blend space becomes CMYK Import sRGB image created in Photoshop on Page 1 Should the user expect the imported RGB image to "match" Photoshop's appearance?

Roger Breton

Legend

Question

Expected Appearance of placed Photoshop RGB content in InDesign CC 2023

Forum|Forum|3 years ago
November 4, 2022
2 replies
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Create New "Print" document in InDesign
Transparency Blend space becomes CMYK
Import sRGB image created in Photoshop on Page 1
Should the user expect the imported RGB image to "match" Photoshop's appearance?

Performance

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rob day

Community Expert

Also, more to your original question, besides the Blend Space and Overprint Preview settings @Test Screen Name mentioned, the InDesign Color Settings Color Management Policies could also affect the display of a placed RGB image whether it has an embedded profile or not. It’s important to note the CM Policies are saved with the document when it is created–the Color Settings’s Policies don’t affect an existing document.

If my document’s saved RGB Policy is set to Preserve Embedded Profiles, and the placed image was saved with the sRGB profile embedded, it will display as sRGB even when my ID document’s RGB profile assignment is different—ProPhoto RGB in this case:

If the document was created with the RGB Policy set to Off, then the InDesign document would be created with no RGB profile assignment, placed RGB images would have their profiles ignored, and the profile assignment would fallback to the Color Settings’ Working RGB Space. Here the doc’s RGB Policy is Off, and my current RGB Working Space is ProPhoto:

Roger BretonAuthor

Legend

Dear Rob,

I appreciate the pain you took to document all your excellent points. Believe me, I'm pretty good with all that stuff myself, policies, honouring placed images embedded profiles and transparency blending. I'm not afraid of rolling my sleeves and dig in all that dirt with my students since color management is one way I've earned a living in the print world for many years.

With your kind help and that of others, I now understand that ALL page elements are "promoted" the Document CMYK space as soon as any page elements has any "transparency" attributes turned on, as in my lowly "RGB additive synthesis" Overlay mode demo.

I pay very close attention to my Color Settings in all four CC applications starting with Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and Acrobat. Bridge works fine on its own, using my monitor profile as the Destination for any selected image, matching Photoshop's rendering to the screen.

The thing I still don't understand and I tried a "Chat support" session with Adobe about it, yesterday -- what a waste of time, it was --, is IF the whole page is thrown into "CMYK", why are the native elements handled differently? Why not ALL page elements be treated the same?

Here are two screen captures that document this behavior, from two consecutive InDesign pages (wish I could attach the document here?), "Page 1" and "Page 2".

On Page 1, there are four elements, three elements are imported Photoshop RGB images, and 1 element, top right-hand corner, is "InDesign" native elements, created in RGB.

You see the difference? Why on eartg is the "native" element NOT rendered the same as the imported elements?

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According to your understanding, as soon as any page elements has any transparency attribute, the whole page is thrown into CMYK, if that's the Document Blend space.

Well, if that was the case, Page 2 below, ought not to be shown in the CMYK Blend space since I deleted the "Native" element? In other words, nothing on this page has any transparency :

You see what I mean?

My problem is I don't know how to interpret InDesign's behavior?

And, the same goes for Illustrator. Here is an RGB document with three different RGB elements shown with Proof Colors (CMYK) :

Left is a placed RGB Photoshop image
Center is a native element, three circles with an unflattened Overlay blend mode
Right is a native element "flattened" into separate, non-blended vector elements :

Obviously, here again, the "native" element appears to be flattened in RGB space BEFORE being rendered into CMYK. Would you agree that this is the case?

If that is the expected behavior, for some reason, I don't agree that this is "correct"? To me, ALL elements on the page should be equally treated. And that's not what I am finding, Rob.

rob day

Community Expert

Like I said, the way the picture was "developped" out of the RAW file -- if there was ever a RAW file -- makes all the difference. sRGB is the default color space the whole world uases everyday, very successfully. Only a handful of "converts", mostly photographers, because of the nature of their "work", use ProPhoto, mostly for saturated colors. Most color in everyday publication are not that saturated. As in painting reproductions. You can stick with your choice of prefered color spaces, for your own technical reasons. Nothing keeps you from using anyRGB.

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You can continue this thread with other list members if you want. I rest my case.

Most color in everyday publication are not that saturated. As in painting reproductions... you can continue this thread with other list members if you want.

It would be even more important for art and art reproductions not to use sRGB because of the massive clipping—if a painting includes the blue, green and, yellow colors that are outside of the sRGB gamut no skillful printer would purposefully eliminate them from the color separation. I don’t think it’s just a handful of photographers that are aware of the sRGB problem, ICC developed the large gamut eciRGB space to include the offset press space and prevent the sRGB problem.

https://www.color.org/ecirgb.xalter

Also, should have thought of this earlier, you can get the blend space collision to happen in Photoshop if you convert your RGB layered smart objects to CMYK without merging the layers:

T

Test Screen Name

Legend

Sometimes. If the profile is embedded in the image, and if the page contains NO TRANSPARENCY, it should look the same. The user should also be prepared for the image to be converted to CMYK, since they have asked for transparency blending to be in CMYK. What is not obvious, but must be learned, is that everything on the page is converted if there is ANY transparency, to provide consistent colour.

Roger BretonAuthor

Legend

Dear Legend,

Thank's for your clear reply. I wish this behavior would be "documented" somewhere, for mere mortals like me. I wouldn't have thought that the presence of any placed element comprising some level of transparency/blend mode would throw the whole page into CMYK simulation? I'll take a look. And, yes, the behavior is hard to follow.

rob day

Community Expert

I wouldn't have thought that the presence of any placed element comprising some level of transparency/blend mode would throw the whole page into CMYK simulation?

Hi Roger, InDesign doesn’t have a single document color mode, it lets you mix objects with different color modes on the same page—AI and PS have single document color modes, so they don’t need a Transparency Blend Space. ID needs a Blend Space because eventually, depending on the output destination, the entire page or spread will need to be flattened into a single color space.

For example, if you are working for a web destination, your InDesign page will likely have to be exported to a flattened JPG or PNG web image format—the entire page or selection, not just the objects with transparency, will get flattened to a single color space on the JPEG/PNG image export.

For example here I have Lab, RGB, and CMYK color fills blended together, with my Blend Space set to RGB. With Overprint/Separation Preview turned off I get a preview of a flattened export to document RGB:

If the destination is print, the page will still eventually get flattened when it is RIP’d—the entire page will have to be RIP’d into a single color space. Also the Blending mode Effects behave differently depending on the color space—you can see that in Photoshop if you try the Difference Blending mode in an RGB vs. CMYK document. So, if I change my document Blend Space to CMYK, the Lab color, which is set to Difference behaves differently, and the entire page previews in the document’s CMYK space, reflecting what will happen when the page is RIP’d:

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