Why Creative Cloud for Europe is so expensive?

[YahorShumski]

Just curious why the price of Creative Cloud for Europe is 60% higer? Okay, maybe there are some taxes etc but World of Warcraft online game with the same business model charges pretty the same for subscription in US and Europe.

Looks like discrimination, yeah?

[JSalmela]

Oh yeah and BTW where is the Adobe staff reply? This is how much they care to do business? Oh yeah, forgot they're pretty faceless when it's about their monopoly but when it's their freaking seminar the tweets are like I'm getting them from my best friends.

[JSalmela]

@DA-Design

A bit of a stockholm syndrome there or what the heck is wrong with you? It's internet nowdays, it's not like Rufus Deuchler is gonna walk to my door and hand my copy to me. As euro user I expect to pay more? DO I? YOU REALLY THINK SO?

[DA-Design]

Had to come back after seeing some of the nonsense sitting in my inbox (i finally decided to open them up and see after several months).

Ok, let me just start by saying I have Adobe Creative Cloud and am extremely happy with it!

Now then let's address some points shall we?

Price difference.  This isn't so much to do with currency exchange rather than the power of a currency in its OWN country.  I tried to explain this before, and granted there is an element of Adobe adding extra to make some more profit but I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as it isn't ludicrous which in my opinion, it isn't.  Just because Adobe operates as a multinational company doesn't mean all of its consumers are only operating within their own countries.  If I was to get an American customer, my prices would seem outlandishly high to them due to the cost of living in the UK being higher, this is a natural thing occuring.  Now while in reverse, I should technically get the software cheaper, Adobe doesn't operate exclusively from the US, they have offices and employees in a lot of countries, the UK being one of them and those overheads have to be accounted for.  How Adobe goes about doing this is beyond me but it may go someway to alleviating the rage flying around at the moment.

Other Software.  There is plenty of Open Source software out there to get you started if you think that this is too expensive for you to buy.  I've used Gimp & InkScape for a number of years and they were able to do the job, though it took a bit more nouse than using Adobe Software, but you get what you pay for really.

I could go on and I may come back to add more points to this proverbial Hornet's nest, but as of right now I have to get back to work

In conclusion though,  moaning about how expensive Creative Cloud is when it costs a tiny fraction of the only other option Creative Suite stinks of hypocracy.  You're all here because you have used Adobe Software in the past or even currently, you've posted on this forum because you actually really want Creative Cloud but are not sure whether to invest or not.  You moan about the price difference between the US and Europe because you're looking for an excuse that blame's someone other than yourself for not taking a step further in your design career.

Seriously, it's that obvious!  No one posts an angry comment about a product unless they either want to buy it and can't, or have bought it and were unsatisfied.

As a final note, I've made nearly £500 from using Creative Cloud since I bought it 2-3 months back.  Not enough to pay the bills by itself but considering I have a full-time designer job on top of that it's some of the easiest money I've ever made.  Thanks Adobe!

[CanDoSandhu]

DA-Design wrote:

Seriously, it's that obvious!  No one posts an angry comment about a product unless they either want to buy it and can't, or have bought it and were unsatisfied.

No, it's not that obvious and I think you're missing the point.  It's a matter of principle...

I am a wealthy software consultant.  The cost of Creative Cloud is small fry to me, especially since I could charge it to my company and hence it's tax deductable.  I was about to subscribe to Creative Cloud but as soon as I logged in the price went from $50 to £47 - it was blatantly obvious I was being asked to pay more in the UK for *exactly* the same product as the USA customers. 

In the past companies have been able to do that because of shipping charges etc. but (thankfully) with online products (such as cloud based products) it's more obvious when a company is just charging you more because they feel they can.

If you think the limited infrastructure necessary to provide Creative Cloud in the UK is 50% more than it is in the USA then you're living in your own Cloud Cuckoo-Land.

So that then leave your other "explanation" as to why Adobe can charge the inflated price to European customers - apparently we can afford it?  The average income in the UK is actually lower than the USA average income.  If the cost of living in Europe is more expensive than the USA it is only because we allow companies like Adobe to rip us off.

I've recently subscribed to an online training site.  The USA customer charge was $299 per year.  The UK customer charge was, also, $299.  Not all companies charge what they feel they can get away with.

You're a professional designer hence it makes perfect financial sense to you, because a) you have to have the product and b) it's still cheaper than buying the full product and c) you earn money from using it (as you've stated) hence it's a no-brainer for you.

For those of us who are not professional designers being ripped-off is an issue and we chose to find alternatives.

[DA-Design]

Thanks for a well versed counter argument, shame no one else can do that.

"You're a professional designer hence it makes perfect financial sense to you, because a) you have to have the product and b) it's still cheaper than buying the full product and c) you earn money from using it (as you've stated) hence it's a no-brainer for you.

For those of us who are not professional designers being ripped-off is an issue and we chose to find alternatives."

That last line is the one I want to focus on in particular, it is pretty much the whole point of what I was saying a few months ago.

Why (Oh why?) is a non-professional designer even considering Adobe software?  It would be like me being a non-music buff or editor in the slightest, looking at Cuebase then getting all worked up because I can't afford it.  It genuinely boggles the mind!

If you aren't a professional designer, getting Adobe software has to be one of the stupidest moves someone can make financially.  It's like me buying a Formula 1 car to do the run to the shops, completely over the top for what I need.

Now can you all just take a step back at look at this from the other side?  Those of us who use this software day in day out, hour after hour, year after year:

As you all know Adobe software is pretty expensive, regardless of the package or product.  For most of us becoming designers, we had to learn to use the software before we even got close to buying any of it.  This took 3 years effectively (for a BA) and we learnt many of the Creative Suite programs and focused on a few really in-depth (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and After Effects in my case).  During this time I had to go into university to do my work outside of my lectures because I couldn't even afford a student copy of the software at the time, thankfully the computer labs had the full suite loaded onto nearly 100 machines.

Now bear in mind it took 3 years to learn 4 of the programs to a truly professional level, to be able to use them efficiently and for a myriad of tasks.  One day I might be making business cards for a client, another day I'll be making a video advertising a company's product/service.  My only option software-wise is Adobe at this point, not purely because it's all I was taught, but compatibility is a problem removed (mostly) when you're importing and exporting stuff from one program to another as they're all made by the same company.  (I'm sure most of you have had the joy of trying to get something made in MS Office to open right in OpenOffice?)

Now you may think I've digressed, but here comes the absolute kicker.  When I graduated, what software could I use?  I was fresh out of uni so having no money, I couldn't afford to buy anything Adobe.  Instead I went straight into work, and I found time after time the following situation:

The company you worked for either a) had only a few CS programs, usually Photoshop and Dreamweaver or some other combination.  (The place I'm working at atm only has Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign) or b) has a pirated version of the full CS Suite (I've worked for 2 big companies that have done this, both of which I reported).  So you get caught between not having the software you want, or being an accomplice to a pretty serious crime.  Creative cloud gets rid of both of those problems for me.

Now, I've always wanted to go freelance, and I have actually gone freelance in the last few years after experience in professional businesses taught me what I needed to be able to do.  My problem was still not being able to afford any of the software, together or even indivdually, it's a massive investment to make even for someone like me, and when you're freelance, you never have the guarantee of money coming in.  So I used InkScape, and was able to use it at a professional and production level.

So now after 4 years of being a freelance designer, I can actually afford to buy the industry standard software, not because I'm raking the money in, but because Adobe have finally made it affordable.  This means I can now compete with the large design studios because I know have all the tools I could possibly ever need.  My first advertisement is going out in the next week or 2 now I have this security to be able to perform any task once again.

If creative cloud had been envisioned when I first went to university, I could in theory be 4 years ahead with my business.  I'd have bought it as a 19 year old with only a part time job because it made so much sense for me.  I'd have been able to work freelance the moment I stepped out of the door.

Now if you've actually bothered to read all of my short story rather than just scroll to the end, do you understand what I am getting at?

YES it is more expensive than in the USA

NO, it is stupid to reject creative cloud based on its price, when its price is so much lower than that of any alternative, when its price for an entire year is less than buying a single program outright.

And just for one final flog of the dead horse.  Why are you even considering buying creative cloud if £50/month is too much?  Were you happy with paying £2500 for the creative suite instead and upgrading for a few hundred more each year?  Were you happy with just buying photoshop despite the price of that being £100 more than creative cloud is for a year?

Is ~£10/month difference something to get worked up about?

Oh some personalised responses for people:

jbregar:  Thank you for actually having some common sense

CanDoSandhu:  May I ask why you were considering creative cloud, despite not needing it for your profession? (I ask because I may be able to help find you an alternative)

RobinSTC:  Yeah I actually considered buying by proxy originally, until I realised 5 seconds later how stupid an idea that actually is.  In order for it to work you would effectively need to commit fraud.  Also, may I ask you why you were considering Creative Cloud too if not for your profession? (Again, I ask because I may be able to help find you an alternative, also it would help me figure out why I'm talking to non-designers about all of this lol).

[RobinSTC]

Well I guess DA-Design can add thoughtless arrogance to his design skills! He entirely misses (chooses to miss?) the point that most European subscribers need no European based support, they are happy to pay in US Dollars and deal exclusively with the US vendor for support and updates. This is the way many early adopters organised their purchases before vendors opened overseas offices and added layers of management. The cost of doing Internet business differs little no matter where the supplier and customer are located, with the exception of VAT/Sales tax, which can be a moot point.

I deal with Cisco in the US, I deal with SAP in Germany, why should I have to deal with Adobe in Britain? What does Britain bring to the party apart from additional cost? A few seminars that I can watch online? If I pay for the Cloud subscription with a US issued card, then I pay US prices (I might have to use a US proxy, but if you are involved enough in this business to need Adobe product then you'll know all about that).

DA-Design's final rant about looking for excuses rather than blaming one self for not taking one's design career further, makes no sense and is an arrogant assumption on his part.

[jbregar]

You all realize you can just not buy the product, right? Maybe if you're REALLY pissed off, you could email or call someone at Adobe who is actually in charge of pricing this stuff and express your displeasure.

The bottom line is Adobe charges more for Creative Cloud in Europe than they do in the United States. Mercedes charges more for their cars in the United States than they do Germany (last time I checked). Price discrimination across borders has always and will always occur. Microsoft charges more for Windows in the US than they do in a third-world country too. This isn't an Adobe issue alone.

If I felt ripped off by Merc's or Microsoft's or Adobes policies here in the US or anywhere else, I'd simply not buy the product (if it was non-essential to my business and/or out of my price range). If the product was essential to my business, I'd purchase it as a business expense as long as it was financially-feasible. If my business margins are so thin that I can't afford the extra mark up then maybe I should not be in business.

Unleashing my wrath on the subscribers to this thread (it emails everyone who's replied here every time you reply unless they unsubscribe) is both completely ineffective, it's kind of rude. I'm guessing with the ranty tone of this thread, Adobe's long-since put it in the ignore bin.

[the_wookie-l3acD5]

So —let me get this straight— anyone who has the temerity to think the current pricing structure is unreasonable should just STFU so people who can't figure out the "Stop email notifications" link can have a cleaner inbox?

If I think Adobe's UK pricing is unreasonable and I'd like to let Adobe know about my opinion, where would you suggest I say this so your delicate sensibilities are not offended? Adding my support to a prominent thread on their discussion forums may not be ideal, but probably carries a little more weight than a personal email to some anonymous support bod. Customer opinion may often be ignored, but it is sometimes taken into account - it can be a worthwhile exercise.

I also have Creative Cloud and I'm happy with it. I can also afford it in my business overhead. None of which is at all relevant to whether I think the UK markup is reasonable or not. I could afford it and be happy with the product if the markup was 5 times as much - the specific price is not the point. The point is the difference between regional prices is markedly larger than any economic considerations would explain and it seems like they're taking the piss.

If you have no problem with being shafted based on your region then fine, don't subscribe to this thread.

[jbregar]

Do you honestly think that the people responsible for Adobe's worldwide pricing strategy are monitoring this thread?

Because if you do, I have a bridge to sell you...

Try emailing Adobe... or hitting them up on Twitter, or calling your local TV station or newspaper.

All of which are FAR more likely to have an effect than continuing to rant on a thread (that's effectively become an echo chamber) in an obscure section of the Adobe support website about how unfair it all is.

Or you can just continue to rant and rave at a bunch of people who happen to agree with you that Adobe's worldwide pricing isn't fair.

Your call.

[the_wookie-l3acD5]

In this case, not particularly.

However, customer concern raised in forums can have an impact. Had this thread blown up, been linked to from prominent news sources, etc. there's a chance it could act as some form of leverage. You don't know until you try, and there's no harm in it.

How do you go about trying to raise an issue, change opinion, etc? Sit around quietly moaning to yourself?

For many people voting with your feet is not an option - the alternative software available is irrelevent if all my clients expect Adobe compatibility in what I deliver. I need to own it, I dislike the pricing structure, I've voicing that and I don't see why that would be a problem for someone who apparently doesn't care?

[the_wookie-l3acD5]

And also, which is more pointless - adding your weight to a thread you agree with on the offchance it might pay off, or going out of your way to write a ranty comment that misses the point on a thread you'd rather ignore instead of just unsusbscribing?

[jbregar]

Yes, and my point is that this thread hasn't "blown up" which indicates that while there's a vocal tiny minority that think Adobe is trying to rip them off by offering them Master Collection in a subscription model for pennies on the dollar (or Euro) vs. buying the boxed product.

Is it more expensive than in the US? Yes.

Does that suck if you're not in the US? Yes.

On the other hand, I'd like universal healthcare, but I don't get that either because I live in the US.

I'd also like to pay German prices for VWs, BMWs, Audis and Mercedes cars, but I can't.

Price discrimination by region is as old as prices themselves and definitely predates downloadable software. Like I said, Microsoft does it in reverse for Windows/Office. People in the US pay FAR more than people in the Phillipines or China for example. Same with Hollywood and DVDs/BluRays. They're cheaper in certain regions. That's the whole reason the "region code" was added to the DVD spec.

The fact is that prior to CC, Master Collection cost 2700 Euro. Creative Cloud is 61 Euro per month. So, for 732 Euro per year, you have CS6 MC. Seems like it's still a WAY better deal than the boxed product.

[the_wookie-l3acD5]

I don't know why you repeatedly feel the need to point out that price differences exist between different markets? It's not like that's news to anyone. Adobe's official response is that the cost of business explains the discrepancy - that seems to most people like bull, and somewhat irrelevant for a software service.

If you wanted to get yourself an Audi at German prices and posted in an Audi forum that you felt their US pricing was unreasonabe I just can't figure out a scenario where I'd go out of my way to write you a response telling you obvious facts about economics and that Audi can do what they like. It just boggles my mind - it's up there in the top right corner, the words are "Stop email notifications" … all you have to do is click the link. It's really not that difficult.

[DA-Design]

the_wookie wrote:

I don't know why you repeatedly feel the need to point out that price differences exist between different markets? It's not like that's news to anyone.

And yet here you are, complaining about the price difference between the 2 different markets...

Lol, just...lol...

[the_wookie-l3acD5]

Duh!

Acknowledging that there are price differences, and questioning whether a particular price difference is justifiable are different things. Maybe that's the point you're missing?

[DA-Design]

In order to question a particular price difference first requires acknowledgement that there is a price difference to begin with, they aren't mutually exclusive.  Each time you complain about the price difference you are "...repeatedly pointing out that price differences exist between markets"

Now while I'm not complaining about you complaining about the price difference,  I am pointing out though that your previous post had just a teeny weeny little bit of hypocracy in it.  That's all

[the_wookie-l3acD5]

Heh. Funny. But no, I don't see where the hipocracy is?

— The complaint is over the extent of the price difference between markets.

— The unspoken assumption is that everyone is aware prices differ between markets. (Is there anyone who isn't aware of this?)

— Someone points out that price differences exist between markets and therefore everything is fine, quit whinging.

— It's pointed out that, yeah, we're not idiots. It's not the existance of price differences that's disliked, it's the extent of the difference and, later, the dubious attmepts at justification for the differences.

— therefore hipocracy.

WTF?

[Zbig_T_]

@JSalmela

My understanding of David__B's vague attempts at explaining and rationalizing his employer's practices was not so much that the costs of doing buisness in Europe (allowing you to download a file) is higher for Adobe. If I got him right, they actually have the audacity to suggest that the cost of doing business in Europe in general is higher for you than than for the folks in the US of A and therefore you should have already gotten used to being ripped of and happily hand your "European-tax" over to the behemoth. That's how I got this which, needless to say, only makes it worse and sadder.

[jbregar]

There are other costs of doing business in the European Union other than just the cost of translation and the shipping cost to get a bunch of plastic discs over there. To act like downloadable delivery suddenly makes those other costs go away isn't going to make it so.

Adobe is a US company. That means the cost of doing business here is already rolled

into every product they sell everywhere in the world. When they choose to serve another market, they'll need to recoup the costs of doing business there as well.

There are taxes to be paid, support personnel to be paid, infrastructure for downloadable content to be built. All that stuff isn't free. They could skimp on it, but then you'd be on here shouting at them for crappy support or the fact that it takes 24 hours to download CS6.

The truth is, the price is what it is and the best way to fight it isn't complaining on here, it's to not buy the product. I'm guessing the number who consider CC reasonable even at the EU price number far greater than the vocal minority on here. While that sucks if you don't agree, the market will speak and that's what Adobe will listen to.

[Zbig_T_]

jbregar wrote:

There are other costs of doing business in the European Union other than just the cost of translation and the shipping cost to get a bunch of plastic discs over there. To act like downloadable delivery suddenly makes those other costs go away isn't going to make it so.

Adobe is a US company. That means the cost of doing business here is already rolled

into every product they sell everywhere in the world. When they choose to serve another market, they'll need to recoup the costs of doing business there as well.

There are taxes to be paid, support personnel to be paid, infrastructure for downloadable content to be built. All that stuff isn't free. They could skimp on it, but then you'd be on here shouting at them for crappy support or the fact that it takes 24 hours to download CS6.

1. What taxes exactly are there for Adobe to pay? I'm really curious, please enlighten me (no, really).
2. I'm perfectly fine with English-speaking support, thank you.
3. The infrastructure is provided by Amazon, Akamai and possibly other major content-providing players. There are no Adobe guys being sent by plane with servers to deploy: one under the Eiffel's tower, another by the Brandenburg Gate, etc., you know? And here's the kicker: internet packets actually do cross and don't really care about country boundaries! Who knew?! I've just done a quick geo-lookup against two IPs my Adobe Application Manager connects to. One is from Washington, another one from Massachusetts. Those were both US states last time I checked. But don't be sad - this whole internet thing got me confused too at first.

jbregar wrote:

The truth is, the price is what it is and the best way to fight it isn't complaining on here, it's to not buy the product. I'm guessing the number who consider CC reasonable even at the EU price number far greater than the vocal minority on here. While that sucks if you don't agree, the market will speak and that's what Adobe will listen to.

And guess what, I'm doing exactly that - not buying the product. And your point is? "It sucks that I don't agree"? Did I hurt your personal feelings? What is the real point for your... ekhm... "contribution"?

[CanDoSandhu]

I totally agree with the sentiment voiced here...I too was going to get Creative Cloud but the rip-off between what we pay in the UK compared with the USA price told me one thing and one thing only;  "Adobe's attitude to their non-USA customers sucks."

I decided against being ripped-off - I hope you continue to be successful in the USA (ONLY).

[marielouavery]

Currently the UK price is exactly 150% of the US price. I know there are tax discrepancies but this difference is unacceptable and I will not be subscribing to the Creative Cloud. I have used adobe products for years and have always bought downloads whenever possible. I have never engaged with any retailer about adobe products, and the argument about retail costs simply does not apply to the cloud.

This is simple rip off and Adobe should be ashamed of themselves.

[WebforWes]

Why should a business be ashamed of a pricing strategy? You are not entitled to any product at the price you think is fair. If you feel Creative Cloud is too expensive, it's just as much your right not to purchase the product as it is Adobe's right to strucutre thier prices the way they feel maximizes profits.

Too many people get emotional about this sort of stuff. No one should feel 'ashamed' here.

[gregkeo]

You are very much missing the point Xeos and your attitude simply encourages large business to continue to discriminate under the guise of achieving business outcomes - maximising profit. Of course that's why businesses exist, however it's the unethical targetting of customer groups - in this case, by geographical location - that makes people angry and emotional.

Many of our personal levels of honesty, integrity and ethics are compromised by the catchcry of 'doing business'. Would people with your views feel the same if Adobe (and other US multinational businesses) chose instead to discriminate (price-gouge) by charging black-skinned people more than white, muslims more than christians, females more than males ????    No ..... I didn't think so.

No-one believes Adobe's claim that their costs are higher everywhere other than the US, to the tune of up to 50% !

They unethically discriminate against non-US customers and they should be ashamed.

[ChristophvS]

A non emotional response will be to create a real alternative to adobe's products.

Sure I wont hesitate to leave Adobe as soon as something credible is available.

It wont be emotional, just as stupidly rational as the justifications we can read here.

By the way. If this response should arise, its the now so loyal employes of Adobe that will be in trouble, not theire shareholders. So I hope that at least internaly you ring some bells!

Well the European aristocraty wasn't ashamed either. As far as I know very few is left of them...

How about economical, political and ethical studies that take in account that emotions aren't regretable flaws of human nature but one of its essential elements.

Astonishingly enough its a fact that didn't escape the marketing theory.

And thanks to gregkeo, whose points I share entirely.