[Locked] No perpetual licenses are you serious?

Report · May 06, 2013

I just head that Adobe was planning to abandon its perpetual license in favor of an on line only rental program. At first I thought that this must be a joke. I have been using adobe products for 18 years. Primarily Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign. I am currently an owner of CS 6 Master collection and obviously do upgrade my products and have consistently done so over the years. I am not connected to the internet full time and in fact my work computer is never directly connected to the internet. So how does this work? Is adobe now forcing me to connect to the internet - it seems that this is the case.

In regards to upgrade cycles, I dont want to rent my software and be tied to a rental agreement. I want to upgrade when I choose, not rent my software like some kind of loaner program!

I want to purchase the software then not worry about it. For instance when I travel, I dont want to be bogged down with downloads and upgrades chewing up my bandwidth. I have traveled to many places where internet access is very limited. Downloading from a wireless card in China is painful, I dont want to be bogged down with no software or large megabyte downloads costing me a fortune on the other side of the planet.

Adobe I know that I am just one person and you will probably not listen to me but did someone ask? No one asked me about this. How simple could this be - I want to buy the software then use it when I want where I want, is this too much to ask?

Please let me continue to use this software in the way that I have used it for so long. If others wish to have the creative cloud then great! More power to them, don't alienate your other users. Please provide both alternatives.

Best regards - Matt

Report · Dec 02, 2013

Great find on perfect photo suite. Had not heard of that one. Very nice it is compatable with programs as photo shop, elements and lightroom. That is a pluss for me. Also much cheaper than photoshop. Its full price is 300$ which is most than many alternatives but hay if it is equal to photoshop thats more than fair. I have seen a few photoshop alternatives that can get spendy in price. Im pretty good with photoshop but no expert as im a graphic designer.

There is no 100% alternative to anything. As it would have to have 100% of the features and there are so many features these days it wont be photoshop unless it is actually photoshop. I think what people need to do is say what do I need. If you need a professional photo editor there are several reasonable alternatives. As im more of a designer that is not my department but as brought up there are many decent or good stand alone photo editors.

For me im happy with some thing a step between e photoshop and elements or photo shop cs 4. Since they have not added much besdies bloat since then.

One reason avids stock may have gone up besides the dislike of adobe is they did sell their prosumer company Pinaccle to Corel in the not to distant past. Adobe is like a party in my mouth and they are all puking and all the bathrooms are full and there is no beverage around to rinse with.

Report · Dec 11, 2013

The way to chancel subscriptions:
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1050818?start=40&tstart=0

Customer Care?

Report · Dec 11, 2013

It does seem a bit rediculous that they make you call or chat to cancel during the first 30 days. Something that I would sort of look at as a trial period.

On the other hand, it was fairly simple to cancel the month to month, on the website, during the first month and before they charged my card a second time. Yes I admit, I gave them $70 once, because I needed an extra copy of Adobe Acrobat for a brief period.

I still don't approve of them killing the perpetual license though.

Report · Dec 20, 2013

In other news adobes quarterly report was released. Seems adobe is finally at its numbers for cc subscriptions. They did have to do several deals the few weeks before to boost their numbers though. I wonder how many will stay with cc after the 1 year sale price dies? By the look of it unfortunately adobe losing money was my only hope for them in 2 regards. For competition and for adobe to realize its made a bad move and to change.

I still hope someone comes along to challenge adobe. For me there is no way I will pay for CC or any software subscription. My hopes for adobe are still down. I had held that cs6 is a great alternative to cc. It sounds like despite adobe promise to keep it around forever it may not be around to much longer. I personally suspect after the May anniversary of adobe attempt of a hostile take over of all creative software they cut the plug on cs6. This as they try to reinforce their hostile take over tactics the final step.

Report · Dec 23, 2013

I discovered Adobe’s creative cloud over the Thanksgiving holiday when I decided purchase Lightroom 5. I already have CS6 Master Collection so I couldn't fathom why I would want to subscribe to the CC since the cloud is still running the same basic version of software as CS6. Ah but then I saw it was $50.00 a month or $600 yearly, how invigorating to know I got to spend nearly $500 more for my CS6 MC upgrade than new subscribers do annually for the CC.

I wrote all of the Adobe execs I could find on their SEC 10-Q filing (20 in all) how much I apreaciated getting bent over for my loyalty, I got a customer service rep which called me about 3 or 4 days later who offered me either a refund on my $109.00 Lightroom 5 purchase – or – 1 year of the Creative Cloud for free. With either choice I was still out money, almost $400 if I took the refund for Lightroom or if I took the Creative Cloud option which is essentially worthless to me until they announce CS7/CC7. In the end I took the insufficient $109.00 refund, Adobe can do what it wants but when it’s time for me to upgrade, my loyalty is gone and I’ll be looking at competing products a lot closer, I have no interest in renting my software.

Report · Dec 25, 2013

As MANY others have said, I have no intention of renting software from Adobe, especially after their "upgrade window" for CS4 users to upgrade to CS6 expired, leaving myself and many other users stranded.

I contacted a live chat agent today and was told that in order to have access to CS6, I would either need to purchase a new license (even though during the old set-up (3 versions back) I would have still been eligible for an upgrade for a nominal fee) or subscribe to CC and pay 360$/yr (600$/yr after the first year) for something I use in a non-professional way and rarely more than twice a month. I don't generate income from this software and I can't justify spending that kind of money for a toy/hobby.

I have plenty of other options but chose Adobe because it used to be known for it's outstanding customer service and ease of use. I won't be purchasing future Adobe products and will strongly encourage others (I know many paying Adobe customers) to find alternatives.

Adobe, you've lost yourself at least one more customer.

Report · Dec 25, 2013

Why do you suppose that the largest graphic design software company has suddenly become the least friendly to customer loyalty. First they changed their upgrade policy to only one version back. Meanwhile smaller companies with much smaller customer bases seem to do just fine offering 2-3 version back upgrades (a few do unlimited version back upgrades). You would think quantity of scale would allow Adobe to provide even better incentives than the small companies.

Then of course there is the whole dropping of the perpetual license option completely, which seems like a desperate move to me. Are they really doing that bad financially? Or are they just trying to weed out the semi-serious users so they can cut back on their support staff. Support staff, which I have personally only needed after they implemented their current DRM which locks you out of installing if you forget or can't deregister a copy.

Incidentally, it seems like the DRM should have also helped them bring in more money and be more relaxed with their upgrade policy. Is all of this stuff a case of miss-management going on behind closed doors? Maybe it's good they are pushing everyone out the door gradually while still leaving a few years worth of options on the table, rather than just closing their doors one day and leaving all their customers wondering what happened.

Report · Dec 28, 2013

I have decided to leave Adobe. It was nice while it lasted.

There are some products from Adobe which are amazing, but many others are so-so.

Adobe has Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat and Flash.

But beyond that, there are many other alternatives out there, which are just as highly or more highly regarded than Adobe's products.

Avid's Media composer is superior to Premiere.

QuarkXpress is at least as good as InDesign

Side Effects Houdini is just as good or better than Adobe After Effects.

Apple has Aperature, which is a suitable alternative to Photoshop.

Above all, they are all perpetual licenses, and none of the Creative Cloud products are.

So given what else is out there, there's simply no incentive to continue buying Adobe's products.

Listen, Adobe people, charging people to 'rent' your software, is akin to buying a lawn mower, sticking in the shed, and waking up in the morning to find that it's gone.

You don't buy consumer products to borrow, them, you buy them to own them.

So, if people previously spent upwards of $2500 on a Master Collection Suite of products, they should own it for prepetuity, for all time.

And expect, and be able to upgrade to CS7, CS8 with an installation CD/DVD which is theirs.

Fortunately, I never spent more than a few hundred on the software, bought it on sale at discounted priced from legitimate official resellers.

...but those companies, creative houses, individual consumers who spent thousands through the years....I pity you, I really really do.

Report · Jan 07, 2014

Amusing how Adobe changed the Creative Cloud forum to have the hand picked "Popular Creative Cloud questions" at the top and removed the section on the side where this thread and other Adobe Creative Cloud real world blunders and customer abandonment and disgruntled topics showed at the top of the list. Did Adobe switch to a communist company before Creative Cloud, I only ask as there sure is a lot of propaganda as well as tightly controlled message being pushed to distort reality of the blundering cloud. Funny thing is Cloud users, still post all manner of struggles daily about this heap of mess even as Adobe tries to paint a picture of success.

Report · Jan 07, 2014

I'm not surprised. I've been banned from that FB page so many times I don't have enough fingers to count. They are deperately trying to put a positive spin on this CC fiasco and doing everything they can. One guy from Pro Tools even responded to someone with something like "Adobe met their subscription figures." Oh really? You don't think having Photoshop and Lightroom at $9.99 a month could have had anything to do with reaching those figures? When Wallstreet sees the sales figures I'd love to watch the stock price drop. I can't imagine that they are making anywhere near what they did with boxed versions of perpetual licenses.

And there are even people on that FB page who are adamantly against bringing back PL's. As if having a choice is a BAD thing? Wow. Just... wow. It boggles the mind.

Report · Jan 07, 2014

"I can't imagine that they are making anywhere near what they did with boxed versions of perpetual licenses."

They still do sell pertetual licenses which is a great deal of where their money is coming from. Whenever someone like Scott Kelby or Bob Levine mention Adobe's record high stock price as evidence of CC's success they need to realize that a lot of that high stock price is still coming from pertetual software. If Adobe discontinued CS6 and the stock still remained high I would be much more convinced of the success of the rental model.

Report · Jan 07, 2014

Yesterday, someone in sales told me they've been told that sales of CS6 will be discontinued in May, so we might find out about the stock's CC worth soon.

Does anyone know why Adobe is shutting down Workspace next January? The first thing that pops into my mind is that it's for cost savings. Having to move collaborative editing to my own server is not helping to rebuild my loyalty toward Adobe. 20 years ago, I thought they had the best business model... giving their customers those extras that kept us coming back... and little by little, the value-added perks are going away. Even their magazine that used to support using the software to its potential seems to have become more of a promotional piece.

Wow, I never thought I'd figure that owning my software would one day be considered a value-added benefit.

Report · Jan 08, 2014

pik80, you should realize that the stock value is the PERCEIVED value of the stock - not actually what Adobe is taking in. Adobe tells Wallstreet that they have "made their subscription projections and are on target for future projections." This has no bearing at all on their income. Let's face it, most of their recent subscription surge is from that $9.99 deal for Photoshop and Lightroom - a FAR cry from $50 (or more) each month that they were projecting. And what will happen to those subscribers when the price increases? And the rest of the subscriptions when the sales/deals run out? The ONLY reason they had that super PS/LR sale was to bolster their subscription numbers for Wallstreet. IMO they are going to have quite a bit less income than they originally projected and the next year or two will be very telling - one way or the other.

For me, Adobe has lost a customer regardless of what they ultimately decide to do. They have lost all of my respect and certainly all of my trust. I know many people who feel the same way and no longer want subsidize Adobe. That's quite sad to go from a company that most respected to one that many now despise. Oh well...

Report · Jan 10, 2014

"And what will happen to those subscribers when the price increases?"

Most of the CC subscribers will be gone because the people who are subscribing are hobiests. That is why that have to get the price down to $10 is to go after the people who don't do Photoshop for a living. Are they going to pay an increased price? No. Look how many times Adobe has to keep extending their "limited time" offers to get people to join. Even at a low $10 a month they are not getting enough people to bite.

Report · Jan 14, 2014

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/01/13/adobe-makes-changes-to-its-creative-cloud-closes-c....

Adobe President and CEO Shantanu Narayen said during a conference call to investors "customer satisfaction (with Creative Cloud) is high based on our surveys." "In addition to paid members, we currently have millions of customer in the pipeline who are trying out the service."

Speaking of pipelines what type of pipe dream is this guy living? Those surveys and results were controlled as if administered by the Kremlin itself, users in this very thread experienced that.

it doesn't appear as though Adobe is worried, not about their competitors actions or their own initial loss of customers. This, even as their net income for the 2013 fiscal year fell to $290 million (on revenue of 4.1 billion) from $833 million (on revenue of 4.4 billion) in the previous year.

Wonder at what point they will publicly acknowledge they are worried and even miscalculated? Or maybe just continue on with the same...

Report · Jan 14, 2014

I have no doubt Adobe will continue on with the same. Customer satisfaction can clearly be gauged in all the different forums online, including Adobe's own, where there are many complaints.

Any time a new online article pops up on CC, check the comments and most will be complaining or be anti CC.

CC has been such a great success in Adobe's eyes that I received a email from Adobe today asking me to watch a webinar they produced on "Get the facts on subscription based software."

lol. If something would have been a true success, you wouldn't need to produce such a webinar.

We already know the facts on subscription based software Adobe - that's why so many customers have left Adobe with their business $$$.

Report · Jan 16, 2014

I am mixed towards CC. On one hand, you've got $9.99/month for PS with bridge and LR which I strongly recommend to anyone learning photography or indeed just anyone period. It's a helluva deal. Considering how many times I tried to argue with Adobe representatives when trying to get the educational version for the standard version at $299 it was advertised for in my home country when studying abroad and the only student version was the "Extended" version (that I did not need) for about $650USD.

Now you can get both tools for $9.99 that's awesome.

Contrast that with my Production Premium. I bought in as a web Premium, then discovered that flash and dreamweaver were not popular tools for modern web dev. But I upgraded to Production Premium and I have been very, very happy with it. It's a perfect fit for me.

And I can budget about $200/yr for updates every 1.5-2.5 years... (recordscratch)

Oh no, you must now subscribe at $600/yr for a suite with a bunch of programs you don't need or use.

Added value? None.

Added cost? Basically TRIPLED.

Same problem for the small business i'm working for. Due to the economic downturn in the US and EU, exports are down 40%, especially on high end, high margin goods. In a country where piracy is rampant.

Adobe AI alone is $240/yr.

Give me a break.

Adobe needs to look at their subscription models in terms of users and annual costs. MOST people that were using a suite instead of Master collection did so because of BUDGET. As the budget goes down, so does the frequency of upgrading. For Photoshop, I upgraded from 7.0 to CS3 and CS3 to CS5.5. Around every 2.5 yrs. Most people I know did around the same (every other version or every 3rd version). Presumably that's why Adobe had the 3 versions back upgrade policy.

In a small business, Adobe might account for just 20-40% of a user's workload. In a full professional setting, it probably accounts for 95%. So a much more 'mission critical tool'.

$120/yr for photoshop+LR

$199/yr for PS, AI +1 other. (light professional use and small business)

$249/yr for a Premium Suite (ie moderate professional use and small business)

$600/yr for Master Collection (ie full on professional use)

Even given the limitations of a subscription model compared to owning a copy outright, I think this would at least suit the large numbers of people who want to use Adobe's stuff, not just "home users + full professionals".

So the ultimate question is: if I were presented with these options, would I pay or would I not?

$249/yr for Production Premium CC? Yes. I would pay today.

$199/y for PS + AI + 1 other? I would submit that budget today and probably get an OK tomorrow.

So that would be $450/yr from two licenses who would otherwise not go for Master Collection CC.

Without sensible pricing like this, how much are they likely to make? Well $240/yr for me to upgrade to Premiere Pro CC, starting in around 1.5 yrs time.

On the odd occasion that a person sends us a CS7 only file, we'll have a choice - either $600/yr, $240/yr or ask them to re-send with compatibility for CS6.

Another issue of course is Indesign. Given the compatibility issues, EVEN IF I UPGRADE TO CC, I will still need to keep ID CS6 on my computer to work with the 5 other people in our office who only use ID ONCE PER YEAR to check and proof the catalogue and therefore stick to CS6.

You think those people will install the trial for a month, then uninstall every year? Don't be stupid.

Small businesses don't have the budget of bigger businesses, but they still work on a year lasting 365 days. And they still have people working in them who are too lazy to mess around with a subscription based service like CC.

Report · Jan 17, 2014

Hello Eschelar,

You story is true but for me al thousands of other NON Cloudies it's not a money issue but the 'creative handcuffs'

Adobe is putting around our wrists.

As a designer/arttist I want to work with my own native files as long as I life.

If CC stops your access to your own (native) files stops.

That is for creative people the worst case scenario.

Another thing is that the costs of the software I use is something I can easily pay.

There's no need to rent. You rent a house on holiday or a chain saw for he only tree in your garden.

Software is something to 'own', be FREE to work with it as long as you wish…

Regards, Valentin

Op 17 jan. 2014, om 05:49 heeft eschelar <forums_noreply@adobe.com> het volgende geschreven:

Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
created by eschelar in Adobe Creative Cloud - View the full discussion
I am mixed towards CC. On one hand, you've got $9.99/month for PS with bridge and LR which I strongly recommend to anyone learning photography or indeed just anyone period. It's a helluva deal. Considering how many times I tried to argue with Adobe representatives when trying to get the educational version for the standard version at $299 it was advertised for in my home country when studying abroad and the only student version was the "Extended" version (that I did not need) for about $650USD.

Now you can get both tools for $9.99 that's awesome.

Contrast that with my Production Premium. I bought in as a web Premium, then discovered that flash and dreamweaver were not popular tools for modern web dev. But I upgraded to Production Premium and I have been very, very happy with it. It's a perfect fit for me.

And I can budget about $200/yr for updates every 1.5-2.5 years... (recordscratch)

Oh no, you must now subscribe at $600/yr for a suite with a bunch of programs you don't need or use.

Added value? None.
Added cost? Basically TRIPLED.

Same problem for the small business i'm working for. Due to the economic downturn in the US and EU, exports are down 40%, especially on high end, high margin goods. In a country where piracy is rampant.

Adobe AI alone is $240/yr.

Give me a break.

Adobe needs to look at their subscription models in terms of users and annual costs. MOST people that were using a suite instead of Master collection did so because of BUDGET. As the budget goes down, so does the frequency of upgrading. For Photoshop, I upgraded from 7.0 to CS3 and CS3 to CS5.5. Around every 2.5 yrs. Most people I know did around the same (every other version or every 3rd version). Presumably that's why Adobe had the 3 versions back upgrade policy.

In a small business, Adobe might account for just 20-40% of a user's workload. In a full professional setting, it probably accounts for 95%. So a much more 'mission critical tool'.

$120/yr for photoshop+LR
$199/yr for PS, AI +1 other. (light professional use and small business)
$249/yr for a Premium Suite (ie moderate professional use and small business)
$600/yr for Master Collection (ie full on professional use)

Even given the limitations of a subscription model compared to owning a copy outright, I think this would at least suit the large numbers of people who want to use Adobe's stuff, not just "home users + full professionals")
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Report · Jan 17, 2014

While I don't disagree with any of your points, I do think they are points in concert rather than points to be compared.

For instance this idea of "I can afford the software while I'm working" is a common and critical point to both of our arguments.

What Adobe is missing from the picture is that while many of us CAN afford $50 here and there, almost NONE of us work in a way where 1 year is a significant chunk of time.

How do we know Adobe missed this point?

40% off for 1 year.

A year is a blip on my radar. I don't manage my personal finances to look at "significant expenses" in terms of a single year. I look at the 5-25 year picture. Things like buying cars, dropping ten grand or so on some camera gear, putting a down payment on a house...

Anything that creeps into the thousands over a 5 year period is worth considering a "significant expense" and is weighed as such.

I administer a network of around 32 computers in 3 locations covering 4 businesses of varying sizes. Of these, 3 use Adobe software seriously on a regular basis. I can also influence buying decisions for 3 other affiliated small companies. Each with a single heavy Adobe user.

NONE of these are in a position to go with the master collection - either in usage OR in budget.

READ: SMALL businesses in an economic downturn that will likely last for at least 3-5 more years.

I am the only user who is likely to spring for a more expansive package like Production Premium, whereas the others would probably be content with $199/yr with PS+AI + 1 other.

As to being able to access your work files after stopping working, well that's certainly food for thought.

Perhaps Adobe needs to consider releasing parallel updates on major intervals. Maybe even every 2 years would be enough.

Maybe as a lock-in after subscribing for a set amount of time (ie every 2 years, you get a chance to lock in). This could be a bit like the locked in intervals in Who Wants to be a Millionaire or something. Just a periodic "SAFE".

Again, thinking in terms of the next 5-10 years would easily come up with ideas like this. And certainly a significant portion of their users look at their expenditures like this.

Report · Jan 17, 2014

eschelar wrote:
...
Perhaps Adobe needs to consider releasing parallel updates on major intervals. Maybe even every 2 years would be enough.
Maybe as a lock-in after subscribing for a set amount of time (ie every 2 years, you get a chance to lock in). This could be a bit like the locked in intervals in Who Wants to be a Millionaire or something. Just a periodic "SAFE".
...

Exactly what a few people have been suggesting since the early pages of this thread, back in May 2013. They need to have subscriptions and perpetual licenses. It's fine with me if the perpetual license is only obtained after 2 years of subscription fees as long as it is available.

Report · Jan 17, 2014

I didn't have time to get into the earlier parts of the thread.

But if multiple individuals are coming up with the same idea, how do we get this to the attention of decision makers at Adobe?

Do we, the graphic artists and purveyors of light and color need to stage protests? Go to Adobe's HQ and sit on their lawn? Start a survey or kickstarter to hire a parade style balloon with our message?

We're a pretty global community.

Adobe - you have a global customer base - you need to find ways to listen to them tell you ways to allow them to GIVE YOU MORE MONEY!

Report · Jan 17, 2014

eschelar... why bother? Seriously. Adobe has ALL of these possible solutions at their fingertips. I've spoken to one of their reps over the phone after I was complaining on FB. Adobe has no intention of changing their mind - UNLESS... it seriously begins to hit their pcoketbook. No other reason will make ANY difference. They've already stated clearly that they expected to lose MANY older customers and they were fine with that. As long as those of us who are unhappy with this subscription-only decision do NOT BUY INTO CC, it will be the ONLY thing that MAY make a difference.

Who knows... at the low price of $9.99 for PS and LR they may get millions more users and it may be enough to keep their "steady cash flow" happy. I hope they fall FAR short of their goals and are forced to return to some sort of perpetual license system. But at this point - even IF they do go that route - I will NEVER buy Adobe products again. They have not only lost my trust, but they've intentionally PUSHED me away and said EFF YOU. They don't deserve my money!

Report · Jan 18, 2014

Isn't it interesting. Adobe's strategy of 'not-doing-anything' (it has been the exact same crack since Photoshop 7.0 or maybe longer) about piracy created an environment where the easiest and most common solution was to just go Adobe. The result was that Adobe skills became the standard and that people - when motivated or in a better financial position to go legit - went ahead and paid the money.

It was a genius course of action that probably isn't talked about all that much, but is extremely effective at drawing in new users from the hordes of people using the now-ubiquitous Adobe suite. Additionally, online training via youtube channels is unbelievably plentiful - many of which users and viewers are using pirated versions and basically on their way to becoming paying customers when it becomes more than a passing plaything.

They went from being a small shop in the wall with specialized goods to OWNING THE WHOLE MALL. More contact means more sales. More dependence on Adobe means more sales. More skilled users means more sales.

Even Microsoft eased their anti-piracy after seeing how well Adobe's 'open door' policies were working for them.

Now, with CC, Adobe is trying to destroy this environment and AT THE SAME TIME encourage people who made the effort to become legitimate paying customers to move back towards piracy.

Did their boss die and get replaced with a moron or something?

Given that digital sales require an overhead of almost zero, why would decreasing the number of sales *ever* be considered a valid GOAL?

Report · Jan 18, 2014

> eschelar

Exactly!

NOT BUY IN!

only way to bring back the choice.

elsewise we see this business model and dependency grow.

Report · Jan 18, 2014

eschelar wrote:
I didn't have time to get into the earlier parts of the thread.
But if multiple individuals are coming up with the same idea, how do we get this to the attention of decision makers at Adobe?
Do we, the graphic artists and purveyors of light and color need to stage protests? Go to Adobe's HQ and sit on their lawn? Start a survey or kickstarter to hire a parade style balloon with our message?

Pretty easy - just give your $ to Adobe's competition. That's what I'm doing. On a perpetual license, Adobe use to get $ from me from every upgrade.

With CC, Adobe gets $0.00.

Makes the math pretty easy for Adobe so they can understand.