Don't hold your breath for CS7....

[_scott__]

http://www.adobe.com/cc/letter.html

Seems there won't be a CS7 ever.

[MW Design]

hey, don't shoot the messenger (g). it does beat buying another computer i suppose. when not buying adobe and a few other vendor's products, there are more options at least for some software.

[Kopy-Rite]

James_233 wrote:

>There are alternatives to everything Adobe offers

Can you name a few, because I am looking! I know there is Quark which is an expensive alternative, and Pages which is probably not professional quality for printing.

OmniGraffle, Corel PhotoPaint... PDF Pen (though I understand Acrobat is not going subs).... Charting to replace my main use for Illustrator...

Quark has an offer now to upgrade ANY old version of quark for somthing like $300?  It wouldn't surprise me to see a competitve upgrade offer too...

[Guest]

With the Quark upgrade, it's £300 + VAT in the UK, plus some Gluon add-ons which InDesign has built in £143 + VAT, plus ID2Q to convert all your Indesign documents £150 + VAT. It's expensive.

[Kurt Gold]

I'm dumbfounded. Scott Weichert rages against the Adobe machine.

A new age is rising.

[_scott__]

Kurt Gold wrote:

I'm dumbfounded.

Why is that? I've always spoken loudly when I'm unhappy with moves Adobe makes as a corporation. I can see some confusion, because I do whole-heartly support and defend the application developers. They have little or nothing to do with the financial coporate gouging Adobe seems to feel is needed.

[Kurt Gold]

I see. I probably forgot to include three characters in post 48:

😉

[_scott__]

I took it with the smile, Kurt. Even though you failed to include it. 

I LOVE the developers. They are all fantastic people. Never have a bad thing to say about any of them or the very hard work they put in.

I really dislike the the corporate honchos and beancounters demanding I pay more for less product.

[Kurt Gold]

I really dislike the the corporate honchos and beancounters demanding I pay more for less product.

And here we are. Over here – in the Old World – we're going to pay even more than you. For a dingy cloud falderal.

Why? I don't know. Perhaps the reason is a cable that is 10.000 kilometres long … ?

[CarlosCanto]

Adobe is just capitalizing on the fact that we humans, always fall for the latest car, the latest phone, the latest tablet, etc and they just became blind with greediness at this point...they have no desire to cater to their customers, it's all about making more and more and more money, one simple example is this same forums, they're very happy to have us here doing their customer support for free...

logic says this business model should not survive and rival companies should take advantage of it, only time will tell...

...but if enough of us keep filling Adobe's pockets, we can voice our disagreement all we want and nothing will change.

some time ago in a not that distant past, Netscape was king and fell, same thing happened the AOLs, Hotmails, Wordperfects and a bunch of others that use to rule the world, they're all dead for different reasons but dead they are...

[Guest]

>Adobe is just capitalizing on the fact that we humans, always fall for the latest car, the latest phone, the latest tablet, etc and they just became blind with greediness at this point...

That bloke I know who still uses a Mac Plus for his work has the right attitude.

He just types words though, he's a journo.

[Was DYP]

W_J_T wrote:

[scott w] wrote:

I buy Illustrator CS6 for $537 (Amazon current price). I can then use CS6 for the next 5 years without ANY additional costs. I subscribe to the Creative Cloud for ONLY Illustrator and pay yearly. In 5 years I'll have spent $1,199.40. And that's assuming the price stays at $19.99 for an annual membership, which I doubt. And should I decide to stop paying... I can't use the app. I'm sorry, all the marketing aside the numbers don't lie.

Hmmm... simple math, odd concept, astounding that so many cloud users fail this simple litmus test. 😉 But all the new features, all the new features. Sigh.

These are the exact people Adobe is going after. Trying to use old version of software without paying anything additional to Adobe. That is like buying a new house one time and not paying the bulder for each year or month you live in it. Of course you will get it remodled for that monthly payment.

But now you won't have to buy a house (Adobe software) you can just rent it forever until you don't pay up, then you will be evicted (software will no longer run). Of course your rented house will get remodled and the rent will go up.

[JETalmage]

I'm sorry, all the marketing aside the numbers don't lie. Renting is never in the customer's favor.

Exactly. And all the foregoing "myth busting" is just so much redirection and obfuscation of that core objection.

I've spent my entire adult life ridding myself of monthly payments as much as possible--especially those which leave me holding no equity. I'm not about to reverse that principle by renting a license for--let's face it--already overpriced and frankly mediocre software.

Sorry, Adobe, but no. Your software does not equate to the necessity of a monthly electric or water utility. Not for my personal hard-earned money.

I've also always made it my practice to consciously guard myself against dependency upon a single software vendor, and I'm sure not going to reverse that principle either, which is exactly what Creative Coolaid represents to me. I've got current versions of three quite capable 2D vector drawing programs. I've been itching to spend more time in Canvas anyway.

Quark, by the way, is currently offering XPress 9 upgrades for $350 from any previous version. I can do that and upgrade Draw to the Technical Suite version and still spend less money than I would begrudgingly shell out to Adobe for a CS7 upgrade.

So count me one guy now happily free of  the regretful Master Collection mistake I made a few years ago.

JET

[DocPixel-BMW]

This is probably going to be a rather unpopular post as well as contradictory in places, but my 2 cents it is.

First off, with this announcement from Adobe, the blogs and forums on the net are in an amateur-hour uproar over a PROFESSIONAL software package, that in my very honest opinion... many should not even be using.

You've got literally 100's upon 100's of people quoting how they use the software only once in a blue moon to do x, and my next questions are: why are using a pro package?... where did you get the software?... and at what point in time did you decide that you're entitled to a professional toolbox to crop a picture or draw a green vector box with text?

I've posted more than a few times that I felt that a number of posters here should never even assume that they could ever learn Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. let alone use it... and the suspicion that some were wasting our time here because:

a) they don't have the slightest idea about the graphic profession at all (witness a recent discussion on this forum re: Convert PNG to Vector... and the poster doesn't have the slightest idea what either is for).... and...

b) it appeared they "picked" up said Adobe program on the net, or in a garage sale bin somewhere and thought that "now", they would, could and should be a graphic professional business.

With that said, I'm all for the accessibility and affordability of tools to allow people to experiment with their creative side. Honestly, Adobe is actually making this hobbyist experimentation even easier and more affordable.

However at a certain point in time, if you want to continue to indulge your "hobby" and "experimentation", you are being asked to pay for it.... and possibly to get paid for your successful efforts at learning the package. What really is wrong with that?

A couple of levelheaded posters have mentioned all of the other things people purchase for far more than $50.00/month... that either get swilled, swallowed, wasted, and clearly have no added value whatsoever than to quell an addiction, and/or displays a lack of discipline, planning and unwillingness to compromise egotistical and instant gratification (unnecessary driving for instance).

Again: these are professional tools... for professionals... to actually make money with. If you can't make even $50.00 a month in invoices... you should consider that you either can't afford your hobby, or take a look at other alternatives.

Speaking of alternatives: yes it is unfortunate... and I hate Adobe for it... that Freehand was killed off rather than sold. It narrowed the alternatives in the vector software market drastically.

Competent, inexpensive and even free pixel-based editors are available on all major platforms... heck... even on iPads and Android tablets. I actually have some "professional photographer" clients that would easily and be better served by Google's Picasa or iPhoto to tell ya the truth rather than PS. At the very most, Lightroom... which BTW is still an extremely powerful piece of software for a small perpetual license price(!)... or Elements.

Pro and Con(job) here:

Pro: Adobe actually plans on updating and integrating features far faster than they were previously.... and I seriously do think they will do this. I could almost bet that within this year, we'll see a number of features that users have been asking for for years now... and amazingly, bugs will start to get fixed within weeks, rather than months and years.

Con(job): I wouldn't put it past Adobe that they have a rather large list of bug-fixes and features that they have been holding back from us, as they prepared for the moment that they would drop the CC-Only bomb and make it a very compelling subscription, if not a "must have" going forward. Clever? Devious? Evil?... or just business?

Last but not least, I'm just sick and tired of all of the "entitlement" people spouting off about software they do not need, use professionally, nor even take the time to read up and to learn it. Jeez! Look at some of the stupid comments here from people that haven't even taken the time to read what the CC subscription includes, what it costs... the first year incentive... the way it works (authenticating over the net... with cloud SERVICES added as a bonus!).

Just the software:

$50.00/Month... un...be....lievable! And if you take the time to learn any of it... one job from one program, pays for the whole month! Experiment with the rest to your heart's content. Try that with your Starbucks, Micro-brew, chocolate and chips, or driving habits!

Rant over... sorry for the long post. Possibly some morsels of truth or food for thought.

Message was edited by: DocPixel-BMW - spelling check.

[Guest]

I use Adobe software professionally, but I only need four of its applications: InDesign, Illustrator, Acrobat and Photoshop. I would not use anything else from the Adobe shop/rental. I don't need the full repertoire of Photoshop and it is used less frequently than the other apps, but I bought it because I need it. I use the diagram and graph parts of Illustrator, not the full range it offers. I use InDesign nearly all the time, and its full reportoire. I have been loyal to Adobe for a long time - I even have InDesign v1 (was that a strange app).

But I object to Adobe's plans to rent the apps to me, and to offer me apps I do not need, and never will use - I don't even remember their names most of the time. I have better things to do with my life than experiment with them. I don't want cross platform access to Adobe products, I am happy with my Mac versions. I don't want to be renting my apps for ever and ever from Adobe, and if I stop paying the alimony to it, then I lose access to my documents. And who knows how often Adobe will increase the monthly rental.

So I disagree with you DocPixel-BMW, berating us from your lofty attic. You may realise at some point you have been suckered. I'll stick with CS6 until it becomes unworkable for whatever reason.

[DocPixel-BMW]

@James_233 - my lofty attic with a 30+ year career, 20+ of which I've used assorted Adobe software to do very well for myself? A lousy $50.00 got added to my monthly expenses and write offs. Do you know that at one time not long ago, that was the cost of 1 family of 6 fonts? Also, that amounts to roughly 30 minutes of my billing time... and about an hours worth of a normal production worker's.

Please. Accept that CC is a business software suite (not Illustrator necessarily....see below). It is not prosumer, nor targeted for hobbyists. And as I stated in my above post, addictions, hobbies and other service subs... where you spend may times more, never have a chance of MAKING you money... probably ever.

@JET - do not forget many of my other posts where I fully agree with your assessment of Illustrator. It most definately is the weekest of all the software programs within any suite version, or now on CC. I personally think it should be offered free or at most $35.00 perpetual. It really is not worth more than that. You are spot on, and I'm constantly on a look out for something to replace it for vectors. And yes... I still have FreeHand in a Snow Leo config for "professional" work.

So I guess I should apologize for a total CC-rant on this forum. Aside from Illustrator, IMHO any 2-3 remaining CC programs are well within the monthly subscription price. Everything else is gravy.

[_scott__]

@Dreia, Yes you can still use legacy versions for the time being. It is absolutely possible to run CS4, CS5 or CS6 right along side a CC subscription. But in 3 or 4 years time, the CC model fails. There will be no legacy version. You either have the latest CC version or nothing. That is one of the biggest issues for me. While the CC structure is workable this year.... it won't be next year, or the year after. And given Adobe's constant changes in policy regarding this, there's nothing to say users who blindly jump on the CC bandwagon won't be screwed again in 12 - 18 months. Adobe has done nothing over the past 3 years but show that they devalue loyal users more and more.

@Doc, your'e still focusing on pricing.... that's NOT the major issue.

[DocPixel-BMW]

[scott w] wrote:

@Dreia, Yes you can still use legacy versions for the time being. It is absolutely possible to run CS4, CS5 or CS6 right along side a CC subscription. But in 3 or 4 years time, the CC model fails. There will be no legacy version. You either have the latest CC version or nothing. That is one of the biggest issues for me. While the CC structure is workable this year.... it won't be next year, or the year after. And given Adobe's constant changes in policy regarding this, there's nothing to say users who blindly jump on the CC bandwagon won't be screwed again in 12 - 18 months. Adobe has done nothing over the past 3 years but show that they devalue loyal users more and more.

@Doc, your'e still focusing on pricing.... that's NOT the major issue.

OK. I've said my peace re: pricing.

Re: legacy versions: either in an interview or a statement from Adobe, I'm sorry... I've read too much on this subject over the last couple of days to remember... they stated that they will be having previous "versions" and roll-backs on their servers. How far back is naturally the concern.

I'm sure due to the mega-uproar over the announcement and Adobe stilll being in the middle of MAX, more details will come to light after the event. I also will agree that the last 3-7 years have really been a waste at Adobe in regards to the state of improvements and bug-fixes. This. must. Be. Remedied. IMMEDIATELY! ... for any of this to be worthwhile for Adobe in the end.

I'm also going to say, that regardless of the success of the roll-out, the stock-price, whatever... I would love... really jump-for-joy-LOVE!... if there's a shake out at the top. Succintly: get rid of Shantanu Narayen (C+V for spelling) and any of the bean-counters and marketing gurus that have made a thorough mess of Adobe over the last few years. They're as bad as, if not worse than Microsoft with their hubris... and betting on the next wave of technology is for all to witness... not their strong suit!

I think the engineering talent is there... but they have been held back by marketing/profit tactics. I truthfully don't think this is one of those tactics though. It does appear to be a streamlining and focus planning. Now it remains to be seen if and whether they can execute those strengths within their software....?! I'l stay safe-side and bet 50:50.

[Guest]

I agree with you about a shake out in Adobe admin. And that there have not been enough bug fixes. I'll add there have not been enough improvements for print specialists. Now if these overdue fixes and improvements are finally done, Adobe will now require us to pay a monthly fee for them.

[DocPixel-BMW]

James_233 wrote:

I agree with you about a shake out in Adobe admin. And that there have not been enough bug fixes. I'll add there have not been enough improvements for print specialists. Now if these overdue fixes and improvements are finally done, Adobe will now require us to pay a monthly fee for them.

In my first post... I said that I actually suspect they will do just that: they have been holding back almost surely! They will get you on board one way or the other.

If I may... you asked for an equivalent Illustrator replacement on the Mac. Since you're doing "print"... I really hate to say IMHO, there is none. There is some "hope" with Sketch - http://www.bohemiancoding.com/sketch/ ... and of course InkScape. The other alternatives at the moment are the old stand-by programs like CorelDraw and Xara on the Windows side, installed on a Mac within Parallels. There were some rumblings that Xara might come to our rescue and release a Mac version. Corel I have absolutely no hope for as a company. Worse than Adobe from my many years as a Painter enthusiast!

[Guest]

Maybe OmniGraffle will do for diagrams. Lack of Pantone support is a problem for finding alternatives to Mac Adobe. Still to find a pantone-supporting charting app.

[_scott__]

Just stick with CS6.. I suspect CS6 will be the longest viable version Adobe has ever had. I know it's going to take some MAJOR advancement to get me to agree to any subscription and lock myself out of my own files down the road.

[JETalmage]

Oh, baloney. You really want to cling to that old saw? You seriously consider Illustrator "professional" quality software? One can just as easily call it consumerish crap, with its chronically decades late-to-the-game and half-baked features, inelegant worst-of-class Bezier drawing and selection  interface, archaic point-based coordinate system, and redundant piled-on repackaging of the same old functionality in "new" whiz-bang features. Illustrator is no more "professional" than any of its direct competitors, and never has been. It's just ordinary, mainstream 2D vector drawing with a bunch of poorly-implemented toys piled on.

You consider 3D Effect "professional"? The absense of dimension tools? The lack of user-defined drawing scales? Its brain-dead graph feature? Its utterly lame "me, too" Variables palette?

Gimme a break. Step off the elitist pedestal a minute and mentally survey the new features of last few versions. Then ask yourself whether they fall under the "serious-business" or "instant gratification" column.

JET

[_scott__]

Hey Doc, You might notice most in this thread aren't really concerned about pricing... I mentioned it, but that's not really an issue for me. The "pay or you lose the software, and the ability to open your files." which REALLY bothers me.

[Dreia Melinkoff]

But you'll still be able to save as a legacy file format onto your own hard drive, right? I can't imagine this not being the case - many service bureaus use legacy versions of CS, many businesses and schools don't always use the latest software, and many designers work from multiple machines and trade off between versions. I have to trade off frequently between CC/CS6 and CS5 so I always make sure my files are accessible to legacy versions when I save them.

[Cupertino Fruit]

There are millions of people, a majority of them creative professionals who swear by Adobe & its products. Illustrator is one such product. Illustrator is the gold standard among vector drawing programs. Many people depend on it to make a career and a living.

Over the last many years, you have continually lambasted Illustrator. You have spent enormous amounts of time & energy doing so. We all agree that there are a lot of things still lacking in Illustrator or how it works but that does not make it any less professional. Since, according to you Illustrator is not a professional software and thus there is a huge gap in the user segment that it caters to, you could have spent less than a quarter of that time & energy in creating a rival product, far more capable & professional than Illustrator & pulled those millions of people into your fold.