Help! New paragraph spacing system is causing problems

[VermiciousKnid]

Adobe's new "space between paragraphs using same style" feature is really messing up my document. I would think it was a good idea, if they hadn't apparently destroyed the old paragraph spacing system in order to add it. I just tried to put some space after a paragraph that does not have a style applied to it, using the Paragraph palette window, and nothing happened. (I do not have the text aligned to a grid, or any interfering text wraps, or any character styles applied.) I now can't add any space after a paragraph unless I build a new style, and put amounts for both "space after" and "space between paragraphs"? I don't want to have to build a paragraph style every single time I want to add some space after a line; what a waste of time. Is there some preference I can adjust?? I can't see why they would have the "space after" option in the Paragraph window if it doesn't do anything, but how do I get it to work now? This issue totally screwed up my day today. I looked to see if Adobe had written out how best to use this new system, but found nothing.

[Jongware]

The default value for Space Between Same Paragraphs is "Ignore". Check if you did not change that to "0mm" (or your local equivalent measurement unit). If it is set to "0", the feature appears to do exactly what it should.

[VermiciousKnid]

Thanks--I didn't understand the new symbol for the "space between" area, so I didn't see it. (I didn't actually put anything in there, so I'm not sure how the 0 got in there, but it wasn't set to "ignore.")

It would be helpful if InDesign made it easier to find explanations of these changes. I've searched the site, and found no tutorial or anything on this new feature. It's probably up there somewhere, but searching for the name of the feature doesn't bring it up.

[VermiciousKnid]

Another issue is that there's never been such a thing as "ignore" as a choice for those palette windows before, so I didn't know about it. I thought by leaving it blank, I had already set it to ignore. It seems that just clicking in there, maybe without realizing it, takes away the "ignore" and destroys it, even if you don't put a number in.

[Laubender]

Hi chrisuren ,

you are right. The input field for Space Between is a bit strange.

Once set to a number one cannot reset it to "Ignore" using the keyboard only.

The arrow keys ( up or down ) will never change the value, a digit, to the default "Ignore" state.

Even if you select the number and type in "Ignore" it would not change to "Ignore".

Instead you'll get an error message that the value you typed is out of range.

Regards,
Uwe

[barbara_a · Accepted solution]

While it is a confusing feature, in my opinion it is actually one of the best enhancements to InDesign, mainly useful for numbered and bulleted lists.

For example, if you have a bulleted list paragraph style with a space before setting of p6 and a space after setting of p10, and you change Space between paragraphs to zero, the space before affects only the first paragraph in the list and the space after affects only the last paragraph in the list.

It's as if all the paragraphs in the list, which all have the same paragraph style applied to them, have been grouped together and treated as if they were a single paragraph.

List with zero space between paragraphs:

In previous InDesign versions, this would have required 3 paragraph styles for the list paragraphs, now it only requires one.

The same list set to Ignore:

I wish that Adobe had implemented this feature in InDesign as elegantly as it was implemented in Adobe FrameMaker. But that does not take away from its usefulness.

[Barb Binder]

It would be helpful if InDesign made it easier to find explanations of these changes. I've searched the site, and found no tutorial or anything on this new feature. It's probably up there somewhere, but searching for the name of the feature doesn't bring it up.

• ACP Steve Werner briefly discusses this and the other new 2019 features here (free): https://indesignsecrets.com/whats-new-with-indesign-cc-2019.php
• ACP Chad Chelius goes into detail on the new spacing command here in issue 116 of InDesign Magazine (purchase): https://indesignsecrets.com/issues/issue-116-excel-tips
• ACP Anne-Marie Concepción reviews all the new features here (purchase, but check your local library—many offer these videos for free to their communities): InDesign CC 2019 New Features

~Barb

[RaCreate]

I'm finding it an absolute pain in the A*.

I loved paragraph before and after and it worked just beautifully for me. Especially when setting typography initially, pre-paragraph styles.

I try using 'ignore' and I try setting it, and I try sticking to my usual 'before' and 'after'...

it isn't working as one would expect. It's fine IF I have paragraph settings defined, but I don't when I'm initially designing...

Is there any way to TURN that OFF? I'd prefer to work the way I have.

Ta

Ra

[Laubender]

Hi RaCreate ,

it should be turned off (Ignore) by default. At least that's with my InDesign.

Deselect everything and see if it's turned on in the Paragraph Panel. And if it's turned on, turn it off.

Also check this when no document is open.

Regards,
Uwe

[RaCreate]

Hi ya.

Ignore doesn't allow it to act as it used to though. As in, it doesn't my set space before and space after measures (after a HARD RETURN). ONLY works when I have a paragraph style set.

That's why it's 'doing my head in'.

So, ignore works the same way as it used to for you?

[Laubender]

RaCreate  wrote

… So, ignore works the same way as it used to for you?

Exactly.

Regards,
Uwe

[RaCreate]

Okay. Ta so much.

Just did some testing and it was A.O.K, so I can only assume User Error. Perhaps I'd had a '0' as opposed to 'ignore'.

I'll be stoked if this has sorted it.

Ta.

Cheers,

Ra

[Russell.Lord]

Agreed. Space after should not be disabled. If it is, the dialog should be made null. 
Too many ways to do the same thing. 
Ultimately, the previous way was predictable and allowed me to achieve every possible or necessary. The new way has the same range of layout results, but with more fussing and dead end UI pathways.     

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Well, this is a fairly zombie thread (4-5 years old) and the feature is no longer exactly new.

All imagined problems are also completely avoidable by simply never setting Space Between to anything but 'Ignore.'

I concur with the experts of the near past, though: it's an extremely flexible way to manage spacing for all sorts of in-text lists. Unfortunately, it doesn't export to EPUB, so the three-style method is still needed for that. Which is, IMVHO, a real problem.

[Kim Wilks]

Forcing users to create a "style" to do a simple "space before" and "space after" is absolutely ridiculous! I rarely use "styles" in InDesign unless I'm creating a multipage documents with many varieties of styles. ADOBE DECIDED TO FIX SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT BROKEN! Arbitrary changes like this make me wish I could use design software that doesn't change commands that we have used for 20 years for NO APPRENT REASON.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Well... this styling structure for spacing has been integral to InDesign since it was first released, and the model of using styles for every document and layout element as a good practice is older than that.

Not sure why you see it as a change, nor how you've used ID effectively for 20 minutes much less 20 years without knowing/accepting both points nor why you opened a zombie thread to complain about it. But I guess we all have our... approach.

Have you heard about a similar product called "Word"? It's basically designed around a complete lack of styles and organized layout and might be the ideal alternative for you.

[Kim Wilks]

Hmmmm, I was able to use "space before" and "space after" on my toolbar just a few days ago. The commands are still on the toolbar but quit working after my most recent update today.  I responded in this "zombie" thread because the problem just occurred today. I use this app every day as a graphic designer, but you clearly know much more than me. So my apologies for upsetting you with my ignorance.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Your post says nothing specific about any problem using space before/after. "It doesn't work" is not even a starting place for any kind of problem resolution. Also note that the change you seem to be blaming your issues on is over six years old, not something that came in last week's update.

It's far more helpful to start a new thread (if you can't find a fairly recent one that deals with exactly the problem you're having, not some generality about the feature) and describe both the problem, in some detail, and the basics of your system (platform, OS, ID version are essential).

You might try that, in this exceptionally helpful community with trainers, developers and generally expert users all here — on their own time — just to help each other through such questions and problems. You know, instead of a content-free rant in an almost wholly unrelated (and 'dead') topic that vehemently expresses, er, a dismissal of the skills needed to use ID effectively.

[rob day]

Forcing users to create a "style" to do a simple "space before" and "space after"

Hi @Kim Wilks , The Space Between feature (which is no longer new) should work even when you are not using styles. If your Control panel is not displaying the interface correctly, you might try trashing your Caches folder, which is often the cause of UI problems. Here my text has no Paragraph Styles applied and the paragraphs respond to the space between value as expected.