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Is there a way to use tables for page layout and make them accessible

Forum|Forum|5 years ago
December 17, 2020
3 Antworten
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We have a team of document designers who say that the only easy way to layout text in a sleek page design is to use tables. See attachement for a simple example. They also use table for more complex layout.

Well, tables in that regards are not accessible because they anounce a data grid when there is no such data in it.

Is there a way to tag that table as role='presentation' like with HTML?

Either in inDesign or in Acdobate DC Pro?

Thanks, Yves

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example.pdf

How to

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Beste Antwort von Bevi Chagnon @ PubCom

No, tables can't be used for layout. Per all of the accessibility standards (WCAG, PDF/UA, EPUB), tables can contain only material that makes sense to be in a matrix of columns and rows, like a spreadsheet.

And no, there isn't a way to designate the table element as presentation, not as structure, and retain the content in the cells.

But I'm really concerned by this statement:

"We have a team of document designers who say that the only easy way to layout text in a sleek page design is to use tables."

Yeowza! That's one of the most outrageous statements I've seen. This former professor of graphic design & digital media and award-winning commercial magazine art director says that is pure bunk. (I'm not being as polite as Barb!)

Thanks, Barb, for demonstrating a better way to create their design!

Suggestion: before attempting to make an accessible PDF from InDesign, have your design team brush up their knowledge of how to use InDesign correctly, to maximize their creative designs as well as minimize their time/effort. Good places to learn:

Your local community college or art school.
LinkedIn Learning https://www.linkedin.com/learning/indesign-2021-essential-training

Then grab accessibility courses from:

Chad Chelius on LinkedIn Learning https://www.linkedin.com/learning/creating-accessible-pdfs
My classes at www.PubCom.com/classes

Regardless of which program someone uses -- Word, InDesign, Powerpoint, etc. -- they must know how to use it correctly in order to create an accessible PDF from it.

That's just the way it is! Master your software tools.

Bevi Chagnon @ PubComAntwort

Participating Frequently

No, tables can't be used for layout. Per all of the accessibility standards (WCAG, PDF/UA, EPUB), tables can contain only material that makes sense to be in a matrix of columns and rows, like a spreadsheet.

And no, there isn't a way to designate the table element as presentation, not as structure, and retain the content in the cells.

But I'm really concerned by this statement:

"We have a team of document designers who say that the only easy way to layout text in a sleek page design is to use tables."

Yeowza! That's one of the most outrageous statements I've seen. This former professor of graphic design & digital media and award-winning commercial magazine art director says that is pure bunk. (I'm not being as polite as Barb!)

Thanks, Barb, for demonstrating a better way to create their design!

Suggestion: before attempting to make an accessible PDF from InDesign, have your design team brush up their knowledge of how to use InDesign correctly, to maximize their creative designs as well as minimize their time/effort. Good places to learn:

Your local community college or art school.
LinkedIn Learning https://www.linkedin.com/learning/indesign-2021-essential-training

Then grab accessibility courses from:

Chad Chelius on LinkedIn Learning https://www.linkedin.com/learning/creating-accessible-pdfs
My classes at www.PubCom.com/classes

Regardless of which program someone uses -- Word, InDesign, Powerpoint, etc. -- they must know how to use it correctly in order to create an accessible PDF from it.

That's just the way it is! Master your software tools.

Y.v.e.sAutor

Participant

Well Bevi,

While I take your point, I don't like your attitude. Not everyone knows what you know. Sharing like Barb did is the attitude.

So next time you see a post from me and you cannot refrain yourself from being polite then refrain yourself from answering it.

You will gain from brushing your attitude.

Cordially.

Bevi Chagnon @ PubCom

Participating Frequently

" The lady doth protest too much, methinks "

-- William Shakespeare, Hamlet

Sorry that my comment ruffled your feathers, but your sample clearly shows that your team of designers needs better training in using InDesign's tools so that they can create their layouts without using tables. As you know, layout tables prevent the content from being accessible and violate the civil rights of individuals with disabilities who use assistive technologies.

Their rationale for using layout tables -- "that the only easy way to layout text in a sleek page design is to use tables" -- is pure bunk. (That's my polite word.)

Per your design sample, table layout is actually more time-consuming and ineffective. Definitely not an "easy way."

Accessibility is a civil rights issue: it prevents people from getting jobs, doing their job if they have one, getting an education, filling out applications and forms, getting directions on Google Maps, and even doing mundane tasks like reading the user manual for the new TV they bought.

InDesigners are not above our laws (in the US, it's Section 508 which is part of the group of ADA legislation). In fact, no one is above our anti-discrimination laws.

Learn. How. To. Use. Your. Tools.

jmlevy

Community Expert

Comme Barb, je ne suis pas un expert en accessibilité (certainement encore moins qu'elle) et encore moins en HTML, mais je suis certain d'une chose : cette page peut être construite autrement qu'avec un tableau.

(Ou alors, je n'ai pas compris la question…)

Barb Binder

Community Expert

Hi @Y.v.e.s:

I'm not an accessibility expert (but @Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com is, so let's see if she has time to stop in and comment).

However, I was able to build that layout using paragraph styles—no table. It needs refining, but that is the basic look. If that is intriguing, have your designers take a look a paragraph borders, shading and rules.

~Barb

~Barb at Rocky Mountain Training

Y.v.e.sAutor

Participant

Thanks a lot Barb. We will look at this approach. Looks promising.

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