Multi-Level Bulleted List Spacing in InDesign

[Sari5C4E]

Hi Adobe community,

I am trying to create a 3-level, multi-level bulleted list for a template I am creating. I have experience creating a multi-level numbered list, but realize the same technique cannot be used for multi-level bulleted lists because you cannot create a custom list name and set the levels. To that end, I've resorted to creating individual styles for each bullet level, but I am getting tripped up on the before/after spacing.

Ideally, I would like each bullet level to have 0 space between bullets but 12 pt spacing at the very end before the next non-bullet style. However, if I the bullet 1 style to 0 pt spacing between paragraphs of same style but 12 pt otherwise, if I need to advance to bullet 2, it will place a space between the bullet 1 and bullet 2 lists.

I realize I may need to just create multiple styles with different spacing options so users can achieve what they need to depending on their needs. But before I do that, does anyone have any creative solutions that will make this easier for users?

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[James Gifford—NitroPress]

All multi-level lists in InDesign are created using one Paragraph Style per level. making them child/based-on levels is good practice for overall management.

You can also assign any set of these styles to a new List Name in the Bullet/Numbering menu, so you can have any number of defined list sets. Never mind — I don't think I ever noticed you can't do this for bulleted lists, which explains your question. You can still use multiple styles to achieve control over each level, they just won't be associated at a 'numbering' level.

ID also has a very useful feature that allows separate spacing control between list elements — you can set all of them to have, say, 12 points of spacing above and below, but ignore that spacing or set another value in between them. I often create three list styles (First, List, Last) for some associated reasons, but this secondary spacing control replaces that method for most (print) uses.

Oddly, Adobe doesn't seem to have any help on multi-level lists, but here's a good third-aprty tutorial:

• https://www.rockymountaintraining.com/adobe-indesign-basic-nested-lists/

Feel free to ask further questions, as well. Lists in ID are very, very flexible and powerful but don't work the way they do in, say, Word... which is a GOOD thing.

[Sari5C4E]

Hi James,

Can you share how to set spacing to 0 pt for all list styles? I understand that when creating paragraph styles, you can set spacing  between paragraph using the same style. My issue is that if I do that, if I have a multi-level list, there will be spacing between level 1 and level 2, when I also want that to be 0 pt. I know I can create additional styles (e.g., level 1 with 12 pt spacing after; level 1 with 0 pt spacing after) to use if it's a single level list versus multi-level list, but I'm hoping to avoid doing so if there's a feature I don't know about.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Control of paragraph spacing is in Indents and Spacing; it's not often adjusted for regular body and content styles but is very useful for lists —

Set to Ignore, it will use the default spacing of the style. Set to any other value, it will use that spacing only between identical paragraphs. So a list paragraph set to 12pt above and 12pt below but 4pt 'space between' will be set off from other text by 12pt top and bottom, but spaced at only 4pt between the items.

The limitation is that if you use multiple styles for any reason, they aren't 'identical' and this value will be ignored.

[Sari5C4E]

Hi James,

Thanks for the response. I think we may be crossing wires a bit...I understand how to set that at the single style level, but I was wondering if there was a way to set some type of a rule that if you use the bullet list 1 style and bullet list 2 style, the spacing between list 1 and list 2 is zero. But if list 2 style is not used, the list 1 style spacing is 12 pt to the next style. I know Word functions this way; this may just be a limitation of InDD, and I'll need to set up a bunch of different styles with different rules.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Okay, was answering the question as I read it. 🙂

But no, the spacing override setting works ONLY between identical styles. It would be nice if it worked the way borders do, crossing styles as long as the border settings are exactly identical.

This is why when it comes to lists, I either throw together a one-style format and live with any minor formatting flaws (for relatively quick memos and the like, nothing more important), or create a three-style stack so I have maximum control. The latter is essential for export to EPUB anyway.

It's a bit of a hassle to create two or three styles for each list level, but it's manageable if you use care with parent/child hierarchy and it eliminates ugly list spacing and formatting, which to me is a glittering hallmark of sloppy/amateur layout. 🙂

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@Sari5C4E

Unfortunately, you either have to create all possible combinations of styles - 1st_bullet_after_body, 1st_bullet_after_header, 1st_bullet_after_table, etc. - or do local override. 

But it's easily scriptable. 

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

I've never needed to get that complex. My most involved layouts use —

• LIST LEVEL 1 — minimal spacing above, zero below
• LIST LEVEL 1 first — full separation spacing above, zero below, restart numbering at 1 if numbered
• LIST LEVEL 1 last — minimal spacing above, full separation spacing below
• LIST LEVEL 2 — minimal spacing above, zero below
• LIST LEVEL 2 last — minimal spacing above, slightly greater spacing below

Repeat level 2 for as many levels as needed. With parent/child and next-style setup, it's not much hassle to use and manage. In 99% of cases, I don't need to adjust first-line spacing after different elements (headings, tables, images etc.) Secondary levels will auto-number correctly if you set it up properly in the List menu. It's only that first, first-level style that needs a force to restart at 1 consistently without the wonky override.

(And, as noted, this allows for meticulous list format control in EPUB — which may not apply to many users, but is that answer to all "why do my lists look so crappy in Kindle!?" questions.)

[Mike Witherell]

You have indeed found a limitation of InDesign. You will have to make 2 versions of each bulleted style, even as you have already said. But now I wonder if some GREP genius could make a passive GREP style work-around?

[Sari5C4E]

Yeah...that's unfortunately what I figured I'd have to do! I thought I'd first check if any fellow users have workarounds that I don't know of, but it seems like that is the only solution for now.

[yellowbird210]

If you find a grep that will do this, please share! I've been looking for something like this too and decided the best (only) option is what @Mike Witherell, @James Gifford—NitroPress and @Robert at ID-Tasker  mentioned. I just hate having so many style variations...   
Is there a way for us to vote/recommend this issue/feature for the developers to incorperate? It doesn't feel like InDesign gets as much love as the other programs.   

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

I think it's a matter of making a feature sensibly structured, consistent and reasonably easy to use.... which means it's not going to handle every iteration, combination and variation well. Word's list function has certain strengths (as well as the titanically awful "multilevel list" feature that is parallel to and largely conflicts with every other list approach); ID has quite a few strengths; but once you get past fairly linear bulleted or numbered lists (mixing the two, or mixing "no bullet" elements)... it's something that has to be worked out around the app's logic. No matter what you change, some variation of this need for a workaround will remain, I think.

With the only absolute solution being completely manual composition, with manually entered bullets and numbers. Removing ID's auto management from the process allows anything... at a price. 🙂

[FRIdNGE]

Just For Fun:  3 "pure" para styles! …

(^/)  The Jedi

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

If the design allows, I usually using only space before for my body text. This allows me to remove it from lists so the space "collapses up". Also, the paragraph following the list would still have the space intact.