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Small Caps not fully embedded in PDF

Forum|Forum|3 years ago
January 9, 2023
7 replies
9060 views

Hello,

I would like to know if there is a workaround to the issue that InDesign does not properly embed the Small Caps it creates when the font does not come with its own small caps. It is a major issue for printers (or when importing the PDF in Illustrator for instance)... and the only workaround is to create outlines whenever Small Caps are used.

Besides, I do not understand why Acrobat mentions that the Baskerville-SC700 is embedded (see screenshot) while Illustrator has a warning when opening the file, explicitly mentioning that the font is missing (and asks for a replacement font).

I have also posted the issue here:

https://creativepro.com/convert-text-outlines-exporting-eps-file-indesign/#comments/2427049

I also attach a screenshot of the error message when importing the file in Illustrator.

All Adobe software I use are the latest ones (2023 version), and I'm working on the latest OSX (Ventura), but the issue was already present on older versions of both Adobe InDesign and OSX.

Is there another way to deal with this issue than creating outlines?

This topic has been closed for replies.

Correct answer Brad @ Roaring Mouse

"I just can't understand why, when a font is embedded, it cannot be recognised as being embedded"

You still don't understand. First of all, an entire font is NOT embedded unless you tell it to be. In most cases you do a subset. Why? For file space. Subset fonts take very little room in the file. Then, ONLY the characters you have used will be emdedded in the file with just those few outlines and sometimes custom encodings. This is in NO WAY the same as the original font file you used. Regardless, fully embedded or subset, when a font is embedded it is there for two purposes only. The main one was is to print the document, where its RIP will use the custom embedded outlines, and the second is for viewing on the screen. THAT'S IT. If you want to try to edit these in anything, whether it be spot corrections in Acrobat, or trying to open in Illustrator or ANY OTHER PROGRAM, you need to have the actual font files on your system. If your printer is having issues with the PDF, then they are the issue here.

L

Laubender

Braniac

Hi @Matthieu S ,

after reading all this, also the fact that you absolutely must stay with that printer:

Your only way to get this right is to open the PDF in Acrobat Pro and convert all fonts to outlines using Acrobat's Preflight function. There is no way around this. And if file size grows with that process, so what? That does not matter at all…

When in Acrobat Pro, go to Print Production > Preflight:

Regards,
Uwe Laubender
( Adobe Community Expert )

BobLevine

Braniac

Right...but the OP continues to insist on calling this a bug and has now disappeared for a while. We'll see what he says if and when he returns.

M

mk-will

Inspiring

Hello, @Matthieu S ,

for a working solution of your problem we need more information about the problem(s) that your print shop is facing.

Did he tell you more about the problem esp. error messages he got?

Or did he just told you "I can't print your files".

If the last is correct ask your printer to give you a more detailed description of the problem.

With a more detailed description maybe a solution can be found.

Regards

Stephan

M

Matthieu SAuthor

Participating Frequently

Hi @mk-will,

As explained above, he printed the file but the font was replaced by a default one, in a very uggly way. The output was exactly the same as when the file is imported in Illustrator (see screenshots above in my reply to @Luke Jennings3, in particular for the Baskerville font, second line first file, of course without the pink highlight). So the issue seems to be that, although the font SC700 is embedded in the file, it is not used by the printer's software, just like it is useless when the file is imported in Illustrator. So if the issue is resolved with regard to Illustrator, it will be resolved for the printer.

I just can't understand why, when a font is embedded, it cannot be recognised as being embedded (even for copyright reasons). For me, it is a "bug" in the sense that the solution offered by Adobe InDesign with the Small Caps option is almost only for screen viewing.

Anyway, the only solution I have found to manage this issue is to convert fonts to outlines using Acrobat, as explained in https://creativepro.com/outlining-fonts-the-2016-edition/.

BobLevine

Braniac

You mean it's the only solution you're willing to explore.

There's no bug here and your statement that the font was replaced by the printer in the same way it's happening in Illustrator leaves me wondering if the printer didn't print it from Illustrator.

You continue to ignore requests for details on this printer, what issues they're telling you the file has, and whether anyone else has looked at this file. If you want to jump through archaic hoops to work with whoever this is, good for you...but I'm pretty well convinced at this point it's human error somewhere.

Dave Creamer of IDEAS

Braniac

Rather than use Illustrator to do anything with the PDF, you should consider the Acrobat plugin Enfocus PitStop Pro <https://www.enfocus.com/en>

David Creamer: Community Expert (ACI and ACE 1995-2023)

Brad @ Roaring Mouse

Inspiring

Let's clarify what's happening in your PDF.

When a font does NOT have built-in Small Cap glyphs, InDesign fakes them according to your Advanced Type Preferences (e.g. ID's default 70%). When ANY font is subset in a PDF, small caps or not, the subsets will be given a custom name, such as "PostScript name: CRDRWI+Baskerville". This will identify itself simply in your PDF Document properties as Baskerville. For your "fake" Small Caps, the font is written as "CRDRWI+Baskerville-SC700"... this is so that when the font is rendered into a PDF, it takes the normal Baskerville font and resizes the capital letters to 70%.

When you open this file in Illustrator, yes it will say SC700 is missing because this version of font does not exist outside of the PDF; It was never meant to be. It is, however, actually and truly just Baskerville. If you do a Replace Font and replace the "missing" with just plain old Baskerville, everything will pop back into line. You will also notice your 12 pt type small cap letters are now sized 8.4pt.

As weird as this sounds, this is how ID has always written code for small caps in its PDFs since the beginning of program.

This does not address why you are doing this anyway. If your printer has been having issues, what are they?? What went wrong? Did it show on a proof?? Are THEY the ones asking for something to be done and what is it exactly? THEY can always convert the fonts to outlines themselves directly in the PDF if their RIP can't handle it for some reason (and if they have that old of a RIP, find another printer!)

As far as your missing diacriticals, yes, not all fonts have them, Pro or not. Depends on te font designer to include them or not.

Scott Falkner

Braniac

Besides, I do not understand why Acrobat mentions that the Baskerville-SC700 is embedded (see screenshot) while Illustrator has a warning when opening the file, explicitly mentioning that the font is missing (and asks for a replacement font).

The font is embedded in the PDF, which means Acrobat can display text using that font and print that text. It can also convert the type to outlines using Preflight…

Opening the file in Illustrator for editing is a different task. Illustrator needs the font installed in the OS or through Adobe Fonts for the font to be available to Illustrator. Illustrator can convert the PDF to outlines if you place it and embed it in a file, but it cannot edit text using an embedded font.

M

Matthieu SAuthor

Participating Frequently

Thank you for further clarifying, but how can I install the subset of a font that is produced by InDesign (***_SC700) and embedded in the file on export, so that I may be able to manually embed it in Illustrator for it to be able to see it? As far as I understand, I cannot do that.

Aso, the fact that AI is not able to edit text using the embeded font produced by ID (same company, so why should there be a legal restriction) seems to be in itself an excessive legal restriction that I consider to be a bug... as I have been struggling for quite some time with this (technically, the font is there, but it seems to be a choice of Adobe to no allow AI to see it, and tell the user that it is not there...).

In the end, the issue is less about Illustrator than simply be able to print the file: if the font is embedded, why isn't the printer able to print the file with the font embedded? If that printing company needs at some point, in their printing process, to open the file with another or more complex software, I am hopeless, unless I create outlines for all fonts (multiplying by 1.5, 2, 3, 4... the size of PDF, for instance, from 50Mb to 200Mb).

Actually, even on some of our new printers at work, it will simply not work. I had to print using a PS2 driver, and not the driver proposed with the printer. In that case as well, it is not a normal situation...

M

Matthieu SAuthor

Participating Frequently

First of all, you should absolutely be using a font that does have small caps. Any pro opentype font should.

I get that's not always possible but fake small caps have been around forever. Without seeing the file, it's very hard to make a 100% judgment but have sent this file to any other printer or service bureau?

Again, no judgment here, but there are a ton of incompetent printers out there that are working on shoestrings and haven't updated their equipment in decades. The article you're linking to is seven years old. The other one is nine years old; Ancient and again, I'm going to get on a soapbox about this...there should be no need to convert fonts to outlines.

If this was indeed a bug, it would be major, and you would not be the only one reporting it.

I am sorry, but I cannot use your comment usefully:

- I need a font with diacritics

- I am forced (by my hierarchy—please don't criticise them as they are responsible for the budget) to work with that printer (I do not mention their name, but it's not an incompetent company—there are very successful).

- the articles I am referring too are very useful and have helpd me cope with the situation and find solutions/workaround (as the comment of Scott).

So, I will leave it here if no one else has a constructive comment.

Anyway thanks for the discussion and the time of everyone.

M

mk-will

Inspiring

Hello, @Matthieu S ,

Adobe Illustrator is NOT a PDF editor like @Luke Jennings3 already said.

If you want to edit a PDF use Acrobat or a similar software.

Best is to do the editing in the source file and export a new PDF.

"Besides, I do not understand why Acrobat mentions that the Baskerville-SC700 is embedded (see screenshot) while Illustrator has a warning when opening the file"

You must be aware of the following: Regarding possible font license restrictions Adobe Illustrator does NOT use embedded fonts when opening a PDF.

Adobe Illustrator always and only uses installed fonts and if the font isn't installed (or not recognized) AI needs a replacement for the missing font.

This is not a bug, it's by design, because Adobe don't want trouble with the rights holders of the fonts.

Regards

Stephan

M

Matthieu SAuthor

Participating Frequently

Thank you Stephan for the clarification, especially about the copyright. However, in this case, it is Adobe ID itself that creates the font, so there is no issue of copyright. If it can use Baskerville or Times New Roman, it should also be able to use Baskerville in its Small Caps form created by the same Company.

As for the other point, I am not trying to edit the PDF in Illustrator... I never thought of doing that for my work, but I have been forced to import it in Illustrator as the only way to check that the printer will actually accept my file. And it's a big online printing company in Europe, so I guess this issue is of interest to others as well.

Luke Jennings3

Inspiring

Illustrator is not a universal pdf editor, nor should it be used to confirm fonts in a pdf are properly embedded. If Acrobat shows all fonts are embedded, there should be no printing issues. I don't know why Illustrator is showing the font issue, but I suspect it's a red herring and should be ignored. Have you tried running an Acrobat preflight to embed the fonts? (Tools> Print Production> Preflight). Can you attach a sample pdf so we can take a look?

M

Matthieu SAuthor

Participating Frequently

Thank you for looking into this issue so quickly.

We are facing a real issue as we lost quite some money with our printer, who blamed us for not preparing the file correctly and refused to reprint. In the discussion, I checked if the PDF was correct with all tools available (incl. preflight and other online tools), and could not find any issue.

I want to stress that while the printer could print our books before last summer, it will no more support our files if they are not vectorised. I suspect something changed at their side but they could not tell me what.

Now, to reproduce the issue at your side is easy. I am attaching two ID files (actually one would be enough), and some screenshots (of ID for one of them showing the issue with diacritics), of the message when importing in Illustrator for both ID files). I need a font that includes diacritics (dots under letters for instance), which limits the fonts I can use.

While I do not have the export issue with Minion Pro (which seems to include Small Caps in itself), that font does not include diacritics, so I cannot use it for my work. Times New Roman (like Baskerville) does include diacritics, but does not seem to include Small Caps... But in the end, if InDesign offers the possibility to use Small Caps, I believe it would be natural that other Adobe publishing apps like Illustrator recognise these Small Caps, just like Acrobat does...

And I have looked into the preflight panel, showing exactly what Acrobat shows me: fonts are embedded (see screenshot and txt report). But as you wrote, this is not a validation: the issue is there, when importing in Illustrator, as well as with the printer (I was really arguing strongly with the printing company based on that argument, without any positive outcome: I had to create outlines...).

And so the only way to validate the file is to import it in Illustrator and see if there are warnings: this is the only way I can be sure the printer will accept files.

I hope this clarifies the problem.

This said, I think I found a workaround thanks to your post reminding me of the use of preflight: it requires the use of the Preflight "PDF fixup", called "Convert fonts to outlines" (see screenshot), but it increases the document size significantly. And anyone without Acrobat will still not be able to solve the issue, which I believe should be fixed at the level of InDesign (why fix an issue created by one Adobe app with another Adobe app?).

Test-SC-Baskerville.zip

Test-SC-TimesNR-MinionPro.zip

Test-SC-TimesNR-MinionPro_report_report.txt