P: Select Sky causes export to be larger than expected

[andrewl21008093]

I've been asked to report this as a bug in Lightroom Classic v11

When a Select Sky mask is added, and 'All Metadata' is selected for export, an error message is generated, screenshot attached. This forces the user to choose a larger file size that may be desired in the circumstances. If a different Metadata setting is chosen, the problem does not occur.

It seems that Select Sky and All Metadata have a compatability issue.

[andrewl21008093]

I've just updated to the new Lightroom Classic v11, but am having an issue with the 'Select Sky' mask. If I use it to select and adjust the sky, then try to export it I get an error message as shown in the attachment. This doesn't happen with any of the other masks, including 'Select Subject'. The error does not appear if there's an obvious clear line between sky and horizon with no obstructions, but that was never a problem anyway. The point of the sky masking update is surely to make complex masking easier.

Depending on the complexity of the selection, I have to increase the file size typically to 1mb in order to export. I don't want to do that as the exports are usually for my website and this will increase page loading times.

Any help/insight would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Andrew

[Per Berntsen]

What kind of edits are you doing to the sky?

In general, if you add sharpening or noise, or if noise becomes more prominent (by adding Clarity or Texture), file size will increase. Because of the way jpg compression works, sharp, detailed or noisy images will have a large file size, whereas images with predominantly smooth or out of focus areas will have a small file size.

Would you mind posting an exported image that you have used Select Sky on?

[andrewl21008093]

Thanks very much for the quick reply Per. I'm attaching the image, and the only change I made (apart from my standard import preset) was to reduce the sky exposure by -0.37. I couldn't export at 400k so had to choose 1mb which is too large for my site (if this problem occurs with all photos as it may do, since my photos are mostly landscapes).

In this case it must be the bush on the left which causes the large file size.

ISO was 100 if that's relevant, sharpening 25, clarity +18, no texture, vibrance +33 as per my standard preset for landscapes.

I've exported over 40,000 photos at 400k to my website https://www.andrewswalks.co.uk/ using Lightroom, and many of these have had numerous complex edits in addition to my standard preset, including clarity, texture, gradient filters etc.

I've never had this issue before, so it seems that Sky masking is somehow making files bigger than they should be and for some reason not allowing me to downsize them in quality, which I need to do for web purposes.

Thanks for your help and I'd be interested to know your thoughts,

Andrew

[Per Berntsen]

I see this image is 850 kb.

What size do you get without Select sky?

I saved the image and opened it in Photoshop, and it contains about 20 kb worth of XMP data from Lightroom.

So it seems that you are exporting with Metadata set to All. Try  setting it  to Copyright only, and see what happens.

I had a look at your website, and all images load very fast at my end. So I wouldn't worry about having 1 mb images, especially considering the internet speeds most people have today.

Really nice work, BTW. It's good to see  well composed, descriptive landscape images with no trace of over saturation or HDR look.

I studied photography in Nottingham and Derby in the seventies, and lived for a while in Bradbourne, on the border of the Peak District. I remember going to Dovedale and Matlock.

[andrewl21008093]

If I remove Select Sky I can export that image at 100k, even with All Metadata.

If I add Select Sky back in, I can also export at 100k with 'All Except Camera Raw Info' (I prefer some metadata for various reasons).

So it's something to do with All Metadata and Select Sky. I don't need to know why this is, though am curious.

I'm glad you like the site, thanks. You must have fond memories of the Peak District, a beautiful area.

I'll stick to 400k for the time being - I live part time in the Lake District with a slow connection, and it takes a while for my pages to load. I take your comments on board though.

This has been my first involvement with the Support Community and it's been a very positive one. You've fixed my problem and I'm very grateful. Many thanks,

Andrew

[JohanElzenga]

I see the same error when I try to export an image, even if I set it to a mere 150 pixels wide! This is clearly a bug. It is caused by embedding all metadata. If I set the export dialog to 'Copyright only', then the image is exported without a problem, also at 1500 pixels wide and even at 2500 pixels wide. I think the sky mask is added to the metadata...

Report it in the Bug section, please. 

[GoldingD]

1. Just to check, to be clear, for that one photo, if you do not apply any mask, does it have the export problem?

2. If you do not enforce a size limit in export, does that one photo, with masking, behave upon export?

[andrewl21008093]

Thanks, in answer to this:

1.  No, it's only the Sky Select Mask combined with All Metadata and a file size limit
2.  It exports fine

The Sky selection was not particularly complex, a more complex one involving say many trees, could exacerbate the problem

[JohanElzenga]

Confirmed on MacOS. I think that the mask itself is added to the metadata, and thus making it impossible to keep the file size limited to 400K.

[Earth Oliver]

@RikkFlohr Why is the sky masking data being exported with jpgs?

[andrewl21008093]

Worth noting too that this doesn't happen with 'Select Subject' or any other mask, it's only Select Sky as far as I can tell. However it's no longer an issue for me, since in future I won't export with 'All Metadata'

[JohanElzenga]

The explanation might be that 'All Metadata' includes Camera Raw settings (i.e. develop settings) and the new masks are part of that. So if you want to export with all metadata, then use the option without Camera Raw settings.

[JohanElzenga]

The explanation might be that 'All Metadata' includes Camera Raw settings (i.e. develop settings) and the new masks are part of that. So if you want to export with all metadata, then use the option without Camera Raw settings (or accept that such masks are too large to keep the image size down below 400 KB).

[andrewl21008093]

Yes, that's what I'll be doing in future, it works

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Investigating

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Setting status to acknowledged

[Bob Somrak]

I see ZERO reasons to have an option to export Camera Raw Info (Develop Settings) for a derivative file  (JPG, Tiff, PNG) with the edits baked in.  Has anyone ever looked at this data and found it useful. 

[John R Ellis]

"The explanation might be that 'All Metadata' includes Camera Raw settings (i.e. develop settings) and the new masks are part of that."

Curiously, the actual pixel coordinates of the Sky and Subject masks aren't included in the exported XMP. For example, here's the exported XMP for a Sky mask applied to a JPEG, a total of 656 bytes:

      <crs:CorrectionMasks>
       <rdf:Seq>
        <rdf:li
         crs:What="Mask/Image"
         crs:MaskActive="true"
         crs:MaskName="Sky 1"
         crs:MaskBlendMode="0"
         crs:MaskInverted="false"
         crs:MaskSyncID="69EF91786E24481ABCA70E9F32D5B8E1"
         crs:MaskValue="1"
         crs:MaskVersion="1"
         crs:MaskSubType="2"
         crs:ReferencePoint="0.772987 0.141767"
         crs:InputDigest="C426B957BC20C4C04E9E8E16B843AD6A"
         crs:MaskDigest="19A23926BBFCB69048177E2444F3CAC9"
         crs:WholeImageArea="0/1,0/1,1920/1,2880/1"
         crs:Origin="0,0"/>
       </rdf:Seq>
      </crs:CorrectionMasks>

So the bug must be caused by something different than the size of the exported XMP.

[giovannil15990362]

Ich exportiere für meine webpage mit: 2500pix lange seite, 72dpi, max 500mb

seit die neue update wenn ich eine AI maske nutze die renderind ist nicht mehr sauber, und kommt an viele stellen pixelate. Wenn ich die maske entferne seigt diese probleme nicht. Wenn ich mit die qualität um 80 mache dann diese probleme ist weg aber natürlich den photo ist grosser um die 750mb.

Ich habe auf diverse rechner propiert der ergebniss ist das gleiche.

hat jemanden das selber problem. gibt es losungen davon?

[John R Ellis]

Google translation: "Export images for web to AI masks. Rendering problems. I export for my webpage with: 2500pix long side, 72dpi, max 500mb. since the new update when I use an AI mask the renderind is no longer clean, and pixelate occurs in many places. If I remove the mask these problems do not arise. If I do with the quality around 80 then these problems are gone but of course the photo is bigger around 750mb. I have prophesied on various computers the result is the same. someone has the problem themselves. are there any solutions?"

I don't recall seeing other posts about this issue. To troubleshoot this, select one of the photos and do Metadata > Save Metadata To File. Then upload the photo and its .xmp sidecar to Google Drive, Dropbox, or similar and paste the sharing link here. That will let us reproduce the problem, narrow down the cause, and perhaps provide a solution or workaround.

[GoldingD]

Not having this issue on my rig.

Wenn ich mit die qualität um 80 mache dann diese probleme ist weg aber natürlich den photo ist grosser um die 750mb.

Try 70%, for a web page you should be able to go that low without obvious issues when viewd on web page.

[GoldingD]

Please post your System Information as Lightroom Classic (LrC) reports it. In LrC click on Help, then System Info, then Copy. Paste that information into a reply. Please present all information from first line down to and including Plug-in Info. Info after Plug-in info can be cut as that is just so much dead space to us non-Techs.

[giovannil15990362]

Thanks. But isn't the point. of course I can go to 70%. The issue is to have a render problem with some export specification. If I really want a work around I could also export jpg in full quality and then re-export from those jpg with low quality as I desire.

but actually I am using "limit the file size to".

[giovannil15990362]

Here the specs. and my export.

I will set a special page in one of my webpages. I am not in liberty to schare any raw data because they are work.

I will try later on today to find in my archive fotos that aren't subjected to rights of third parties. and share here.

for the moment you can have a look at this two galleries. the first is before the new lightroom the second with the new LR CC and AI Masks and where the problems are to be seen in some of the photos.

https://www.lunapark.works/auffuehrungen/beautifullandscapes/

https://www.lunapark.works/auffuehrungen/beautiful-landscapes-the-corona-edition/

thanks for your help

[giovannil15990362]

thanks.

I posted down an asnwer about that.