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WPA57
Known Participant
February 1, 2019
Question

Lightroom does not preserve Horizontal Flip on Export - Why?

  • February 1, 2019
  • 4 replies
  • 4881 views

I have a question relating to the “Horizontal flip” function in Lightroom.

I have a number of scanned 35mm transparencies (24-bit tif) that have been scanned on the wrong side so I need to batch “horizontal flip” these.

The fundamental issue is that I can do the flip in Lightroom but when I export the photo in the original tif format), the photo is in its original orientation.

Except that –

If I do the export to email format as a jpg   ie using one of the export presets, the flip IS preserved.

So it seems that Lightroom does not remember that I have done the flip if I export as the original ie tif

I suspect that this could be something to do with the fact that Lightroom does not really consider such a transform a real edit – doing the flip is not saved in history. I would like to save the flip operation as a preset and apply to images as I import but it seems I cannot save such a preset.

So – any ideas why Lightroom does not preserve the Flip on export – is this a bug or a “feature”?

Either way, how do I get it to sing my tune!

Thanks!

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    4 replies

    W
    WPA57Author
    Known Participant
    February 16, 2019

    I have investigated “Save Metadata to File” further

    It is NOT behaving quite as expected.

    Because, depending on the application, even though the EXIF shows that the orientation has been changed after a Flip or Rotate, the Display of the Photo is variable, depending on the application used to view.

    ie

    1/ If I do either a Rotate or a Flip (then Saving Metadata to file)

    - The Orientation description in the EXIF has changed (ie as expected)

    - But

    - Viewing the files as “large Icons” in Windows explorer has the image in the original orientation

    - Opening the file in a viewing application, such as Irfanview, Faststone, Windows Photo viewer and others results in some applications showing the image orientated as carried out in LR and some in the original orientation. One application will show a flip done correctly but not a rotate, another will show a rotate done correctly but not a flip.

    -

    2/ But you Export the file (instead of Saving Metadata), then it is seen in the newly orientated way in every application, including Windows Explorer view.

    Incidentally, in this case the EXIF structure has also been completely changed by the Export operation. ie not just the content of the Orientation field, the fields themselves have changed.

    Conclusion

    - Saving Metadata to file is not reliable as the altered file is handled unpredictably, just depending on the application used.

    Todd Shaner
    Todd Shaner
    Legend
    February 16, 2019

    WPA57  wrote

    I have investigated “Save Metadata to File” further

    It is NOT behaving quite as expected.

    Because, depending on the application, even though the EXIF shows that the orientation has been changed after a Flip or Rotate, the Display of the Photo is variable, depending on the application used to view.

    Not all picture viewer apps  apply the EXIF orienation data to the image. Some have 'Option' settings to to do so, but you have to manually select it in the apps options menu. XNView is a good example: https://www.xnview.com/wiki/index.php/Image_Rotation

    WPA57  wrote

    2/ But you Export the file (instead of Saving Metadata), then it is seen in the newly orientated way in every application, including Windows Explorer view.

    When the file is exported in LR it applies the Flip Horizontal orientation to the image data in the new file and changes the EXIF to blank (i.e. nothing). All image viewer and editing applications will open this image with NO orientation changes, which is correct.

    WPA57  wrote

    2/ But you Export the file (instead of Saving Metadata), then it is seen in the newly orientated way in every application, including Windows Explorer view.

    Incidentally, in this case the EXIF structure has also been completely changed by the Export operation. ie not just the content of the Orientation field, the fields themselves have changed.

    By EXIF structure I think you mean the image data has been completely changed, which is correct. What surprised me is the LR Export file when examined in ExifTool has no entry for 'Orientation' field. It's not a problem since the image data orientation is correct, but it's inconsistent with PS, which inserts 'Horizontal (normal)' in the Orientation EXIF data field.

    L
    Lumigraphics
    Legend
    February 12, 2019

    There seems to be a bunch of confusion about what the lossless flip or rotation is about.

    Most image formats have space reserved for EXIF and other metadata. Image orientation is set in the TIFF namespace, in the orientation property. If a graphics app makes that change, you must export the file with the TIFF namespace intact or you lose the rotation/flip. This same namespace stores the resolution setting which is why if you strip metadata, some program default to a 72ppi setting.

    Todd Shaner
    Todd Shaner
    Legend
    February 12, 2019

    Lumigraphics  wrote

    If a graphics app makes that change, you must export the file with the TIFF namespace intact or you lose the rotation/flip.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "namespace intact." The LR Export module updates the EXIF Orientation data with the non-destructive orientation edits applied inside LR. The original file can also be updated by using 'Save metadata to file' command or CTRL/CMD + S keys, but this also writes the Develop settings and any metadata edits applied inside LR.

    You can create an exact copy of the original file with just the Orientation EXIF data updated by exporting the image file to 'Original' file format (i.e. lossless rotation).

    L
    Lumigraphics
    Legend
    February 13, 2019

    Metadata is divided into section, which are defined by namespaces. Each namespace has various tags containing data. Some or all can be deleted.  Bridge, ACR, Lightroom, and Photoshop can read and write them, along with loads of other software.

    If you delete the rotation tag, you lose rotation data.

    Also remember that the same metadata can be saved in different tags or namespaces.

    Just Shoot Me
    Just Shoot Me
    Legend
    February 3, 2019

    I have done several tests with camera images that were RAW then sent to PS and saved as TIFF.

    In all cases if I Flip Horizontally and then Export as either a TIFF or Original the Flip is preserved.

    I just did a test with a Scanned B&W image exporting As Original and again the Flip was preserved. Same happens if exported as a TIFF.

    So this is something unique to your system. I would try resetting the LR Preferences and test.

    As to all the other posts on 8-24 bit I have no idea but I seriously doubt that has anything to do with the Flip not carrying over to the exported file.

    Todd Shaner
    Todd Shaner
    Legend
    February 3, 2019

    https://forums.adobe.com/people/Just+Shoot+Me  wrote

    I have done several tests with camera images that were RAW then sent to PS and saved as TIFF.

    In all cases if I Flip Horizontally and then Export as either a TIFF or Original the Flip is preserved.

    I just did a test with a Scanned B&W image exporting As Original and again the Flip was preserved. Same happens if exported as a TIFF.

    I can confirm the 'Flip Horizontal' setting is preserved for both raw and TIFF file formats when exported to Original or TIFF file format selection on Windows 10 with LR Classic 8.1. As Just Shoot Me mentions the most likely cause is LR Preferences file corruption.

    https://laurashoe.com/2018/06/26/resolving-buggy-behavior-in-lightroom-reset-preferences/

    Todd Shaner
    Todd Shaner
    Legend
    February 9, 2019

    Thanks - I tried that but "Save as original format" still did just that! - ie unflipped the image


    WPA57  wrote

    Thanks - I tried that but "Save as original format" still did just that! - ie unflipped the image

    1) There is no need to re-export the original TIFF file. When you use 'Save Metadata to file' the LR flipped-horizontal orientation edit is written into the file's EXIF data 'Orientation field' as 'Mirror horizontal' (see below ExifTool screenshot). If you open the unexported original TIFF file in any viewer it will respect the flipped-horizontal orientation. There's nothing more you need to do to make that happen. Done!

    2) In addition I used Export> File Settings> Image Format> Original and the resulting new TIFF file shows the Horizontal Flip in both LR and in an external photo viewer XnViewMP (see screenshot below). As Just Shoot Me mentions you're doing something wrong. "Save as original format" doesn't exist in LR Classic 8.1. What version of LR are you using? Go to Help> About Photoshop Lightroom and tell us what you see.

      B
      bhousto90
      Legend
      February 1, 2019

      Export as original does just that - an original copy with no edits

      If you export as a TIF it should work

      W
      WPA57Author
      Known Participant
      February 1, 2019

      Thanks - I meant the export format is set to original (as opposed to jpg, dng etc)... which I understood meant

      "Keep the edits that were performed but don't mess with the file format"

      There is an option to select tiff as the format (ie which is the original format) but this starts asking about colour space and bit depth and it's doing some manipulation as I can confirm by a change in filesize. (Even though it DOES preserve the flip).

      (The original images are 24-bit sRGB but I can only select 16 bit)

      I would not expect a flip to result in any filesize change.

      I need it just to leave ALL that kind of formatting just as it was and only do the flip.

      Hope that makes sense...

      Thanks again!

      Bob Somrak
      Bob Somrak
      Legend
      February 1, 2019

      Your original images are probably 8 bits per channel or 3x8=24bit.  The export choices in Lightroom for TIFF are 8 and 16 bits per channel.

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