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tigre58
Participant
October 11, 2023
Answered

P: Regarding JXL Compression in derived Merge/Enhance DNG Images

  • October 11, 2023
  • 3 replies
  • 8375 views

Why with LR CC v.13, the files panorama files are now saved as lossy files?

    This topic has been closed for replies.
    Correct answer JohanElzenga
    quote

    But , in previous versions of LR CC,  panorama files were saved as lossless files. Is posible change this set before making a panorama?


    By @tigre58


    Do not look at the words 'lossy' and 'lossless', look at your image and see if there is any visible effect of this new compression method. Recreate an older panorama and compare the old massive DNG with the new, much smaller DNG. Do you have any reason to be concerned?

     

    3 replies

    R
    Ross2511000501vd
    Participant
    February 16, 2024

    Hello all, I wondered if you can help me.

    When taking bracketed shots, I have been merging them in Lightroom as an HDR merge. To give you an examples my RAW files are each 85MB in size. I am generally merging 5 shots. Once it has created the HDR merge, which provides a DNG file, the size is reduced to 14MB for the stacked file. Is this correct or is there something I am missing? I believed that the idea with stacking or bracketing was to retain more data from each shot. Am I wrong in thinking that the size of the output DNG file should be as large as all RAW files put together? Please do let me know any thoughts or if there is something I am missing or have done incorrectly. I have attached a sample photo showing the smaller merged file and the original RAW file.
    Many thanks

    Ross 

     

     

      reproo2773183
      reproo2773183
      Inspiring
      September 2, 2024

      Stacking is  just how the files are displayed/hidden in Lightroom.

      The HDR DNG is a demosaiced Merged file it won't contain 5xRAW data, only one Layer of pixels and that single layer is now compressed, whereas the RAWs may have been lossless.

      I think you are assuming a structure similar to 5 Layers in Photoshop 5, thats not whats in you DNG.

      You get to keep the extra dynamic range information from bracketing because you effectively have more bits (smaller steps) to play with.

      M
      madbrain76
      Known Participant
      September 2, 2024

      I'm not the one you were responding to, but I thought I would respond still.

       

      I'm not personally assuming that any of the original raw data is preserved in the merged file - HDR or Panorama.

       

      What I'm assuming is that the process goes like this.

      1. Merge x DNG files into one demosaiced set of pixels, in RAM

      2. Compress that data on disk

       

      If LRc were properly designed, you could choose the compression method in step 2, one with lossless JPEG XL, and one with lossless JPEG.

       

      You could then export each output DNG to a TIFF, then use a tool to compare the pixels data, to see exactly how much information was lost.

       

      Unfortunately, the option to choose the compression for photo merge is missing in LRc, and there is thus no way to do that.

       

      I would try to test this by comparing a previously created lossless DNG Panorama,  to a newly recreated one as a loss DNG. Unfortunately,  the merge algorithms have changed. I was unable to recreate one of my existing panorama in the current version of LRc. The merge algorithms change with each version of Lightroom.

      It is thus not possible to keep the compression algorithm as the only variable.

       

      A someone who can hear the difference between lossless audio and compressed audio, I think this is a choice that needs to be left to the user. Just because I have macular degeneration and can't personally tell the difference between the lossy and lossless images doesn't mean someone else won't be able to tell.

      This is just a braindead decision by Adobe. They need to provide a lossless option. Also, since JPEG-XL doesn't yet have wide acceptance in other software (not even Windows Explorer shows previews), the option to switch between JPEG-lossless and JPEG XL-lossless should be there. Just like it is for regular Export rather than Merge.

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

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      O
      Olaf314551382lie
      Participant
      November 13, 2023

      Ich habe Lightroom Classic Version 13.0.1 und Camera Raw 16.0 auf meinem neuen Rechner installiert.

       

      Seitdem bekomme ich VERLUSTREICH komprimierte Panoramen und HDRs mit deutlich reduzierter Auflösung und Dateigröße (Dateityp "Digitales Negativ/Verlustreich komprimiert". Ich möchte jedoch verlustfreie DNG-Dateien erzeugen.

       

      Mache ich etwas falsch oder haben andere das gleiche Problem? Anwendungsfehler oder Bug?

       

      Über Tipps bin ich sehr dankbar!

       

      Viele Grüße

      Olaf

      kglad
      Community Expert
      kgladCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      November 13, 2023

      in the future, to find the best place to post your message, use the list here, https://community.adobe.com/

      p.s. i don't think the adobe website, and forums in particular, are easy to navigate, so don't spend a lot of time searching that forum list. do your best and we'll move the post (like this one has already been moved) if it helps you get responses.



      <"moved from cc desktop">
      Rikk Flohr_Photography
      Community Manager
      Rikk Flohr_PhotographyCommunity Manager
      Community Manager
      October 11, 2023

      The compression method for derived DNGs has been changed from JPEG to JPEG-XL, which provides a smaller data footprint without loss of quality. 


      Creating a merged DNG such as a panorama is already a “lossy” process because the merged pixel data has been demosaiced, aligned, and blended from the original photos.  Using JPEG XL compression makes a much smaller visual change.

       

      Rikk Flohr: Adobe Photography Org
        T
        tigre58Author
        Participant
        October 11, 2023

        But , in previous versions of LR CC,  panorama files were saved as lossless files. Is posible change this set before making a panorama?

        Rikk Flohr_Photography
        Community Manager
        Rikk Flohr_PhotographyCommunity Manager
        Community Manager
        October 11, 2023

        See additional comments added above. 

        Rikk Flohr: Adobe Photography Org
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