P: How to export to SVG from Photoshop?

[TomH07]

I have a PS file that has text that I converted to a shape, plus another shape. I want to convert that to an SVG file, but, when I use the Explort As dialog, the only export file options are GIF, PNG and JPG. If I do Save As, the only options are Photoshop, Large Document Format, Photoshop PDF, and TIFF. 

I searched the help system, there's nothing there that I can find. Did they remove SVG export from Photoshop?? I sure hope not. I have Photoshop 22.4.3. 

[PECourtejoie]

Hello, t the technology behind the svg export is very old and might be soon retired. 

Export As has been rewritten without that, but you can for the moment restore the old Export as by going to Edit > Preferences > Export > Enable "Use legacy Export As" option > restart Photoshop. 

[ciitsandinoflores]

Dear Adobe,

I need your help to investigate missing svg file format was disappear on Adobe Photoshop CC 2021 because its something changes I can't save as SVG format but I can't see its very hard, when photoshop cc the export/save as/save as copy SVG format preset was gone through changes using Windows 11 PCs.

Please help, thank you! 

[ciitsandinoflores]

dear adobe,

i need help i cant save svg file format has disappeared in Adobe Photoshop CC 2021.

please bring it back save as formats inclds svg.

[jane-e]

Moved from Photoshop Discussions to Ideas

~ Jane

[PECourtejoie]

Hi, the code behind the SVG export might be retired in the future. It is still available for the moment if you go to Edit > Preferences > Export > Enable the "Use legacy Export As" option,  then restart Photoshop. (unless you are using an M1 Mac)

[rdbstl]

Oddly enough, I'm on 22.5.0 and I don't have that option (Mac).

[PECourtejoie]

Yes, because it relies on a CEP panel, a techology that is being retired, and will not make it to the Apple Silicon version.

That option should be there if you run the application in Rosetta mode.

[Fahad343088551lsd]

https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-ideas/export-psd-to-svg-in-mac-photoshop-or-missi...

[MrGlennJones]

If anyone still needs SVG Export... this feature is still available as default within Illustrator (version when posting this :26.0.1) so you can export paths from photoshop to . AI or copy paste your shapes into Illustrator. Pure adobe insanity. 🙂

.

[Kukurykus]

Go through posts - it's still accessible in Photoshop in Export legacy mode 😉

[MrGlennJones]

Read through my post - "still available as default"

[Kukurykus]

It's just option like many others, so for ex. stepping back by 'Ctrl z' versus 'Ctrl Alt z'.

I mean better to set it in app you use each day than using the other just for one thing.

[MrGlennJones]

well, why implement something like "save as SVG"... then confused people by taking it away again when there's simply no reason to?

[Kukurykus]

I agree with you. For me it was uneeded move. I've learnt management folks often do things we can't understand. It's like to put a lock to the door and never use the keys 😛 But if users want it, inform them, you can find them under the doormat 😄

[TomH07]

THE REAL CORRECT ANSWER

I see 3 posts that have been labeled as Correct Answers (not by me), but this is the only correct answer... 

I solved the problem by buying Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo. They both export to SVG without having to jump through all the hoops Adobe is now forcing us to do for SVG export that Photoshop previously did well, and is now for some unkown reason removed and left in a "legacy" mode that is slow and klugey.

Thanks, Adobe. 🙄

[Kukurykus]

You mean Export in previous versions was faster than the same but from Legacy?

[TomH07]

No, I mean that the new Export As is much much faster than the old Save As Web legacy exporter tool that's needed for SVG, which is horribly slow. 

[TomH07]

Why is there no way to edit posts here? I meant to say that the new exporter is a lot faster than the old legacy one you're forced to use if you want SVG export capability. 

[Kukurykus]

Most possibly to edit own comments you need first to post 100 of them.

[Kukurykus]

Legacy Export is not only Save As Web, but also new (fast) export, including SVG.

After you enable it in preferences you can still exportAs SVG format, check it - it's true 😉

[ChelseDaniel]

That's the only thing that upsets me. The way they had it before worked well. The community is asking to "put it back".

[Nancy OShea]

That's the only thing that upsets me. The way they had it before worked well...

By @ChelseDaniel

==========

I don't share your enthusiasm.  While I use Photoshop regularly for working with rasters, I found the experimental SVG export feature was a nice idea that was never fully realized.  I prefer that Photoshop focus on what it does best, not what it does it poorly. 

llustrator as well as a bevy of other tools (free & paid) produce better SVGs than Photoshop. 

https://www.xp-pen.com/forum-1023.html

https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2021/03/svg-generators/

[TomH07]

---

I found the experimental SVG export feature was a nice idea that was never fully realized.  I prefer that Photoshop focus on what it does best, not what it does it poorly. 

See, that's just it. Photoshop did SVG export VERY well! In fact, I tried several other programs, and Photoshop always produced the smallest and most efficient SVG files from vectors and text. So I completely disagree with the assertion that Photoshop didn't do SVG export well. 

Also, Photoshop has long had the ability to create vector graphics. People generally knew that if you make a PS file with only vector shapes, then it will export very cleanly to SVG. It's pretty clear that Adobe wants you to pay monthly for another piece of their subscription software just to do SVG exports. There's really little reason they had to remove SVG export from Photoshop. They called it "experimental" to make it seem like no one used it and that it was problematic, which is false. 

[Nancy OShea]

Let's agree to disagree.  What's acceptable to one user may not work well for everyone.  If you've never opened SVG code in a text editor to add advanced features, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about.   What's the old saying, ignorance is bliss?   There's nothing blissful about working with Photoshop generated SVG code.  In fact, it's dowright painful.

By way of an actual example, here's a simple vector shape with border, fill and text. Beside it is all the code required (file size under 1KB):

Behold what Photoshop does (file size over 10 KB):

<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" width="1364" height="462" viewBox="0 0 1364 462">
  <defs>
    <style>
      .cls-1 {
        fill: #0054a6;
        stroke: #f06eaa;
        stroke-width: 13.4px;
      }

      .cls-2 {
        fill: #eaed14;
        stroke: #ed720e;
        stroke-linejoin: round;
        stroke-width: 4px;
        fill-rule: evenodd;
      }
    </style>
  </defs>
  <image id="Background" width="1364" height="462" xlink:href="data:img/png;base64,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"/>
  <rect class="cls-1" x="16" y="27" width="1324" height="407"/>
  <path id="Sample_Text" data-name="Sample Text" class="cls-2" d="M422.6,261.93q6.984,6.024,20.015,6.024a38.936,38.936,0,0,0,14.953-2.508,19.666,19.666,0,0,0,9.282-7.664,21.634,21.634,0,0,0,.539-22.008,19.31,19.31,0,0,0-7.594-6.984q-4.853-2.554-14.977-4.946t-12.75-4.594a5.274,5.274,0,0,1-2.062-4.171,5.006,5.006,0,0,1,2.2-4.266q3.422-2.484,9.469-2.484,5.859,0,8.789,2.32t3.82,7.617l13.875-.609q-0.328-9.468-6.867-15.141t-19.477-5.672a34.373,34.373,0,0,0-13.523,2.391,18.631,18.631,0,0,0-8.578,6.961,17.662,17.662,0,0,0-2.977,9.82,17.882,17.882,0,0,0,6.328,13.828q4.5,4.032,15.657,6.8,8.672,2.157,11.109,3a11.43,11.43,0,0,1,4.992,2.977,6.258,6.258,0,0,1,1.43,4.148,8.437,8.437,0,0,1-3.4,6.633q-3.4,2.837-10.1,2.836-6.329,0-10.055-3.188t-4.945-9.984l-13.5,1.312Q415.617,255.907,422.6,261.93Zm72.14-34.64a9.428,9.428,0,0,1,5.485-1.383q5.2,0,7.078,1.617t1.875,5.414v1.312q-3.564,1.5-12.8,3.235a44.14,44.14,0,0,0-10.477,3.07,13.166,13.166,0,0,0-5.648,5.063,14.155,14.155,0,0,0-2.016,7.523,13.868,13.868,0,0,0,4.43,10.547q4.429,4.173,12.117,4.172a20.673,20.673,0,0,0,8.2-1.641,23.732,23.732,0,0,0,7.219-4.922q0.141,0.376.469,1.547,0.748,2.579,1.265,3.891h13.032a28.219,28.219,0,0,1-2.368-6.68,53.472,53.472,0,0,1-.632-9.68L522.117,235q0-8.577-1.758-11.789a13.084,13.084,0,0,0-6.07-5.3q-4.312-2.086-13.125-2.086-9.7,0-14.625,3.468T479.6,229.985l11.953,2.156A9.61,9.61,0,0,1,494.742,227.29Zm14.438,18.164a25.985,25.985,0,0,1-.516,6.421,8.249,8.249,0,0,1-3.141,4.36,11.4,11.4,0,0,1-6.8,2.344,7.2,7.2,0,0,1-5.25-2.016,6.456,6.456,0,0,1-2.063-4.781,5.494,5.494,0,0,1,2.578-4.641q1.688-1.125,7.172-2.3a82.521,82.521,0,0,0,8.016-2.015v2.625Zm24.937,21.281h13.172V242.547q0-7.172,1.055-10.265a9,9,0,0,1,3.492-4.735,9.6,9.6,0,0,1,5.484-1.64,6.893,6.893,0,0,1,4.008,1.031,5.987,5.987,0,0,1,2.18,3.141q0.7,2.109.7,9.375v27.281h13.172V242.829q0-7.032,1.078-10.289a9.353,9.353,0,0,1,3.516-4.946,8.971,8.971,0,0,1,5.2-1.687,6.24,6.24,0,0,1,5.625,2.812q1.359,2.157,1.359,9.563v28.453h13.172V234.907q0-7.125-1.359-10.313a13.649,13.649,0,0,0-5.672-6.539,18.068,18.068,0,0,0-9.282-2.226,17.369,17.369,0,0,0-8.109,1.968,23.019,23.019,0,0,0-7.078,5.953,15.14,15.14,0,0,0-5.766-5.953,16.713,16.713,0,0,0-8.3-1.968q-9,0-15.515,7.921v-6.8H534.117v49.781Zm85.969,18.937h13.172V260.594a25.167,25.167,0,0,0,7.054,5.625,16.775,16.775,0,0,0,7.477,1.641,18.985,18.985,0,0,0,14.766-6.914q6.093-6.914,6.093-19.383,0-12.139-6.046-18.938a18.985,18.985,0,0,0-14.719-6.8,17.835,17.835,0,0,0-9.047,2.343,18.383,18.383,0,0,0-6.469,6.094v-7.312H620.086v68.718ZM636.3,229.961a10.1,10.1,0,0,1,8.015-3.726,9.714,9.714,0,0,1,7.782,3.8q3.14,3.8,3.14,11.625,0,8.391-3.047,12.07a9.515,9.515,0,0,1-7.64,3.68,10.181,10.181,0,0,1-8.11-4.008q-3.329-4.008-3.328-12.4Q633.117,233.688,636.3,229.961Zm55.968,36.774V198.016H679.1v68.719h13.171Zm39.141-10.406a8.065,8.065,0,0,1-5.2,1.687,9.965,9.965,0,0,1-7.594-3.258q-3.048-3.257-3.187-9.117h33q0.28-15.139-6.141-22.476t-17.531-7.336a21.308,21.308,0,0,0-16.36,7.007q-6.468,7.009-6.468,19.383,0,10.361,4.922,17.156,6.232,8.486,19.218,8.485,8.2,0,13.664-3.774a21.525,21.525,0,0,0,7.993-10.992l-13.125-2.2A10.429,10.429,0,0,1,731.414,256.329Zm-15.75-18.75q-0.046-5.391,2.766-8.532a9.506,9.506,0,0,1,13.968-.164q2.813,2.977,2.954,8.7H715.664Zm99.609,29.156V209.641h20.344V198.016H781.008v11.625H801.4v57.094h13.875Zm47.719-10.406a8.063,8.063,0,0,1-5.2,1.687,9.967,9.967,0,0,1-7.594-3.258q-3.047-3.257-3.187-9.117h33q0.281-15.139-6.141-22.476t-17.531-7.336a21.3,21.3,0,0,0-16.359,7.007q-6.47,7.009-6.469,19.383,0,10.361,4.922,17.156,6.233,8.486,19.218,8.485,8.2,0,13.664-3.774a21.525,21.525,0,0,0,7.993-10.992l-13.125-2.2A10.429,10.429,0,0,1,862.992,256.329Zm-15.75-18.75q-0.046-5.391,2.766-8.532a9.507,9.507,0,0,1,13.969-.164q2.813,2.977,2.953,8.7H847.242Zm52.594,29.156,10.219-15.422,10.125,15.422h16.172l-18.422-26.2,16.875-23.578H919.336l-9.281,13.687-8.813-13.687H885.164l17.2,24.14-17.953,25.641h15.422Zm58.125-49.781V199.375l-13.219,7.688v9.891H938.7v10.5h6.047v21.7a63.876,63.876,0,0,0,.422,9.281,12.213,12.213,0,0,0,1.852,5.133,9.369,9.369,0,0,0,4.2,3.094,16.521,16.521,0,0,0,6.422,1.195,26.179,26.179,0,0,0,10.406-1.969l-1.125-10.219a17.038,17.038,0,0,1-5.3,1.266,3.711,3.711,0,0,1-2.226-.656,2.888,2.888,0,0,1-1.172-1.664,49.868,49.868,0,0,1-.258-7.1V227.454h9v-10.5h-9Z"/>
</svg>

It's utterly nauseating!

As far as low & no-cost alternatives, there are plenty of FREE SVG apps available that generate better code.  See my links above.  😍

Good luck!

[TomH07]

It seems that your disdain for SVG export in Photoshop has more to do with a lack of experience or knowledge of vector vs. raster layers in Photoshop, which is why you've got a PNG image embedded in your SVG file. That's not Photoshop's fault, that's purely user error. But as you say: ignorance is bliss!