Printing magenta/red with CS5

Report · Jul 10, 2010

OK, I have a bizarre situation, and I'm sure I"m missing something obvious.......

I've been using Photoshop for ages, and my Epson 2200 likewise, for ages. Everything is calibrated and my prints have been good, again for ages... I converted to Windows 7 Professional last October, recalibrated, everything fine.

In April I upgraded from CS4 to CS5. Club year was over so I didn't need to print anything for a little while. Several weeks ago I printed some images and they came out magenta. I ignored it and got caught up in other stuff. More recently I needed to print an image I've printed before, and again, it came out quite magenta.......

I KNOW, back in the "old" days, this was an indication that I was managing color in both Photoshop and the printer. But, by any figuring I can do, I'm ABSOLUTELY not doing the printing any differently than I was in CS4. I"m setting the color management in Photoshop, and when I get to the printer dialog I'm ABSOLUTELY telling it to use ICM and NO COLOR MANAGEMENT........ I've tried different settings, different images, and different papers,

and things are still magenta. I've done a nozzle check, which was perfect. I've even CLEANED the print head, even though things looked fine. I've rebooted the computer, cycled the printer on and off, said incantations, searched (in vain) for a virgin to sacrifice, and even PRINTED DIRECTLY from Lightroom V3, just to see if that'd many a difference. I'm out of ideas.......

Does ANYBODY know of something that's bizarrely different in CS5 that'd cause this situation?

I"m about to reinstall CS4, just ot see if I get magenta prints there too, even though I never have before........

Report · Jul 30, 2010

Maybe you are correct, but I still think it is something in the Adobe
products that has been overlooked.

How? How could using Photoshop CS5 change the code in Photoshop CS4?

They don't share anything but the OS and drivers.

A scan of a print would be a waste of time.

We need to know how to reproduce the problem.

Report · Jul 30, 2010

Why couldn`t CS5 be (in some cases) corrupting the print driver. So it sticks even when using CS 3 or 4. So yes it would be a driver problem....but caused by Adobe. So who is responsible ?

Report · Jul 30, 2010

Yes!!! Think you are on the right track!

Barbara Ann Castelloe

<link removed>

Report · Jul 30, 2010

Or maybe cause a registry setting to be changed... I'm just sayin'.

-Noel

Report · Jul 31, 2010

Why couldn`t CS5 be (in some cases) corrupting the print driver. So it sticks even when using CS 3 or 4. So yes it would be a driver problem....but caused by Adobe. So who is responsible ?

Because Photoshop can't change the driver in any way?

The only thing that could be changed is some setting in the driver, or registry entries used by the driver -- none of which Photoshop can change, they would have to be altered by the driver or OS.

Report · Aug 02, 2010

Well, after all this thrashing about, having basically given up on printing from LR3 & CS5, on a break from re-configuring (and ending up rebuilding) our file server into a file & print server (...don't ask! what a mess!) I decided to see if I could see anythng in the registry for the Vista machine we'd been printing from that looked like a color management setting or Epson driver setting -- wondering if there was something there that would have impacted the printing.

After lots of looking I noticed the Epson print driver name referred to in one of the keys was "Epson Stylus Photo 2000P ESC/P". That seemed odd to me, so I decided after all this to go ahead and download & reinstall the driver.

I downloaded the driver from Epson -- http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?oid=14402&prodoid=20306147

This is driver version 5.91 (top of the list for Windows Vista 32-bit).

I went ahead and double-clicked the file after download to install it ( filename = epson13484.exe ), which ended "successfully".

Then I went back to the test image in PS CS5 XT, set:

PS print dialog -- CM ON, chose the desired printer profile
Printer dialog -- ICM, no color management

As usual the print preview was magenta tinged. No surprises there.

The print, however, -- after all the searching -- showed NO magenta tinge.

I don't consider this the final test since I have not tested LR3 nor have I tested on different papers/profiles, but it is promising.

Though others have suggested several things, let me note some things I did *NOT* do during this saga (thusfar):

printer was NOT uninstalled
preferences for PS & OS were NOT dumped
registry was NOT changed directly (only changes would have been the install of PS5, LR3 & reinstall of Epson driver, & regular windows Vista updates)
CS5, LR3, and the OS were not uninstalled or reinstalled or 'repaired'

Basically the only change in terms of install/reinstall was to reinstall the print driver. Other earlier tests were made just changing settings made in LR3, PS5, and print driver dialogs during print.

This doesn't answer why the driver was somehow corrupted or even if it was the driver or something else that is installed/reset/set duirng print driver installation But, so far the tests I've done no longer show the magenta tinge in the print when PS manages color.

My lesson learned -- if this has finally resolved the problem -- first reinstall the driver!

At the same time, it also makes us very wary of being an early (relatively) adopter of new photography/workflow/printing software. This saga has cost us significant time, $, and possibly customers. Not a good experience, except in that we now have the experience of troubleshooting this particular issue.

Here's hoping this has resolved the issue and that it may help others as well.

- Bonnie

Report · Aug 03, 2010

I"m glad it worked for you. I tried the same thing early on. Installed the 64-bit 5.91 driver (which I already had) for Windows 7, but things are still magenta. At this point the equipment is unusable and I'm going to have to get everything printed commercially.

From the recent finger-pointing and statements, I figure Adobe's given this one the big kiss-off. Its not going to get fixed unless by accident or as a byproduct of some other fix. Unfortunately, regardless of who they point at, it's pretty simple here:

It worked.

It DOESN'T work.

WHAT CHANGED....... The ONLY change was CS5 and LR3.

I'm wondering if it may be time for the sledgehammer approach... Go into the registry and blow away every instance of ANYTHING with the word "epson" in it. Then try again....... Can't get a whole lot more screwed up than things are now.

Report · Aug 03, 2010

Well, t'was worth a try........ Uninstalled printer and drivers. Deleted every reference to Epson in the registry. Rebooted. Installed 5.91 again....

Magenta......

Report · Aug 03, 2010

Dave --

I'm sorry the driver reinstall did not work for you. We don't consider things to be fully resolved here either and will be monitoring this for some time.

No expert here, but having been in the development (dot-com) world before these things can be very elusive. And I would agree that its likely getting little attention given that other issues may have a greater volume of impacted customers voicing issues. Typically if the QA/development team doesn't have the steps or environment (hardware/software/settings) to reproduce a problem they focus on those where they do and the unreproduced issues fall to the bottom of the list or the back-burner -- to be thought about, but not resolved until they can be reproduced.

We've wondered here whether it could be a batch of install CDs that introduced something -- something different in the files or install settings from one CD batch to another, one hardware/software environment combination to another. Hard to know.

Could be something that requires a certain path of settings, installed applications, or hardware that interferes with turning off CM in the print driver. Or even something that could recur with certain actions that we aren't catching. (Think sun, moon, stars, all aligned.)

Whatever has changed, to me it seems it has to be related to the code/settings for color management and the way they turn off CM in the print driver so it doesn't double profile -- whether that's OS, PS/LR, or driver. Nothing new -- I think we all see that as the problem area.

Noel's registry comparison could eliminate or identify that as a spot for trouble. Then again, it could be very difficult to figure out how the registry setting is interpreted by the application & driver code. Ugh.

We're going to continue to test here -- and report what we find -- there is a concern that something could be impacting the driver that hasn't been identified but which could recur. We may shift the printer over to the Vista 64-bit version to see whether that also shows magenta, since that's what you're running too. (If I'm remembering correctly.) Just hoping to shed more light on this murky issue.

We'd thought of upgrading printers, but with other printers identified as having similar issues and all the mucking about trying to resolve this we're likely to hold off until the dust settles or we clearly see there's one that fits our needs that hasn't experienced the magenta issue.

Sorry this is a bit of a negative note, but without the clear cause it's difficult to be confident that things are fully resolved -- at least in our case.

- Bonnie

Report · Aug 03, 2010

"... one hardware/software environment combination to another."

Pretty much on the money. The bane of PC is the strength of Mac: multiple hardware/driver/software/peripphals for PC, one (except periphals) for Mac.

Report · Aug 03, 2010

Hudechrome,

My guess is when I try CS5 on a 2880 it'll work fine too... Although, it'll have to be from my laptop 'cause both people I know that have 2880s absolutely refuse to upgrade and jeopardize their printing. If there WAS a significant, large-scale problem with the "current" crop of printers - 1900, 2400, 2880, 3800, etc, the screaming would get this elevated to the point where someone would fix it.......

Since most people have replaced their 2200 (or older) printers with new units, it's a small group that's having problems. What I HAVEN'T seen in here, and probably won't, is people that have CS5 and 2200 printers that are getting color management as good as, or better, than they were previously. Those folks would have no reason to go looking for this topic, so there may be thousands of them having no problems at all........

I sent a request to Epson support on the problem, relating that Adobe says it CAN'T be CS5... I figure the response won't be useful, but MAY be amusing, and if it is, I'll post it.

Report · Aug 03, 2010

Have you tried a custom profile? I believe Eric Chan offers one at a pretty good price. Since he is an PS engineer, he would have to have some comments himself, especially if the profile didn't work!

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/

Scroll to the bottom for the profile link. On the way, he has lots of good stuff as well!

Report · Aug 04, 2010

Well, things have now deteriorated to the point where I"m just depressed about the whole printing thing!

I spent some time fiddling yesterday, literally adding GREEN to the images so the prints wouldn't be magenta.

It SOMEWHAT works, but the prints aren't pure magenta cast, so they're not perfect....

As it stands, the 2200 that's been making great prints for years until CS5, is unusable......

SO, today I went over to an acquaintance with an R2880, just to see what would happen...

Took the image I've been using and printed it from CS5 on my laptop, and CS4 on her desktop.

Both prints used the same paper and the same profile, and they both looked the same..... LOUSY,

but the same...... And NOT magenta.......

Just not very bright and saturated. I figure I could eventually get the 2880 to work, since at least there's

no significant color shift. But I'd A WHOLE LOT RATHER GET WHATEVER'S GOING ON WITH THE 2200 FIXED.....

Report · Aug 04, 2010

OK, GOT AN ANSWER FROM EPSON...

Now, quit laughing......

********************************************

I'm sorry to hear about your issue. Before responding to this email, I setup the 2200 printer on a Windows 7 64-bit computer. I downloaded and installed the same driver as you mentioned and also the ICC profiles for the test paper (premium luster). In my three test prints, there was zero magenta cast. This was not on a "clean" Windows 7 system, meaning it wasn't a freshly installed copy of Windows 7. There were other applications on the computer already, etc. I printed using Photoshop CS5 and all tests were with CS5 controlling the color with the correct ICC profile selected. Printer management was off.... At the end of the day, my test concluded that it is not an Epson driver problem that you are experiencing.

The only thing that comes to mind is that your CS5 is conflicting with your Windows 7, or other previously installed Adobe products. Or, your image files may be the issue or your color settings.

********************************************

So there you have it....... It's VERY surprising, but lessee - Adobe points at Epson, Epson points at Windows 7 and Adobe. And EVERYBODY wants to blame the user. Apparently, all of us that are having the problem are too dumb to accurately set up a print from CS5.

Report · Aug 04, 2010

Dave --

Sounds like the response I'd gotten, though you managed to get someone to actually setup a system and try it! Or so it seems.

Anyway, I have another thought that might help -- doesn't get to the actual problem, but still might get you back to printing. It was what I was going to try -- until I ended up getting a few prints to work (so far) and at least for now this solution is on hold for us.

If you're using a desktop and have an extra hard drive -- doesn't have to be large, but one that you can swap out or use. Consider it your "printing" hard drive. Install either XP or Vista or whatever OS was working for you before the current problems. Same with the adobe app -- install the prior version before the problems. Same for the Epson driver.

This basically takes everything down to a simple OS + PS + Epson driver system. No CS5, no LR3 -- just the stuff that worked before. Also none of the other apps or things that could "interfere" and after setup "unplug" from the internet so no OS updates beyond the latest service pack either.

I was going to do this as a USB drive, but booting from USB is a whole 'nother technical ballgame I haven't had time to learn the ins/outs of (some BIOSes don't allow it others require futzing with settings). Basically though using a different HDD isolates everything. You could do it as a separate HDD in your desktop system if you wanted to do a dual boot, but that's more complex to setup so the single drive is easier to do.

Certainly not optimal, but seems less destructive (okay, marginally) than having to change the way you'd done your images for print (adding colors, etc.).

Just a thought.

- Bonnie

Report · Aug 05, 2010

Dave,

What happens if you try printing using "Printer Manages Colors" with your 2200? Are the prints similarly magenta, or not?

Have you tested printing to the "Microsoft XPS Document Writer" pseudo-printer that's available with Windows 7, and then printed from that to your printer? That will go through a slightly different path in the code when printing, and may provide some extra information about what's going wrong.

The other idea I have is to remove all the Epson 2200 color profiles manually and reinstall them if you haven't already. My memory of the 2200 is that removing and reinstalling the printer didn't actually remove and reinstall the color profiles.

Report · Aug 05, 2010

UNFORTUNATELY, without realizing it, I used my last light magenta cartridge. As of last night I'm out of light magenta so I'm out of business until I can get some more ordered...

>What happens if you try printing using "Printer Manages Colors" with your 2200? Are the prints similarly magenta, or not?

I tried this the other day. Used the proof color to set the profile, then turned OFF having Photoshop manage colors. In the print dialogue I told the printer to do the color management, and it showed it had selected the 2200 glossy profile. The results were magenta.

At this point, the ONLY way I can get a non-magenta print is to turn off ALL color management...... They're ugly, but they're not magenta.

The other thing I did, just for giggles, was to save a jpg, then load it into Word and print from there. My recollection is actually looks better

than things do from Photoshop at this point.

>Have you tested printing to the "Microsoft XPS Document Writer" pseudo-printer that's available with Windows 7, and then printed from that to your >printer? That will go through a slightly different path in the code when printing, and may provide some extra information about what's going wrong.

Is that by any chance what Word used? I'll try it once I have ink again! I've got a whole case of ink - between 2 and 5 cartridges of every ink I need. EXCEPT for light magenta, which I'm now out of.

>The other idea I have is to remove all the Epson 2200 color profiles manually and reinstall them if you haven't already. My memory of the 2200 is that >removing and reinstalling the printer didn't actually remove and reinstall the color profiles.

I did that when I removed the printer. I cleaned EVERYTHING I could find off the system. Downloaded and reinstalled everything. It didn't make any difference.

Report · Aug 05, 2010

> I tried this the other day. Used the proof color to set the profile, then turned OFF having Photoshop manage colors.

Try this without setting up the proof.

> Is that by any chance what Word used? I'll try it once I have ink again!

Not exactly, but it will break some of the communication between Photoshop and the driver, and might keep the driver from getting confused.

Magenta output like this is usually a symptom of double color management, and while I believe that you've turned off the color management, it sure sounds like something in the driver is trying to manage the colors a second time.

Also, if the "inminn" in your name means your in Minnesota, drop me a private note with your contact info. I'm the print engineer on Photoshop (for some reason they haven't put the "employee" tag on my profile yet), and located in Arden Hills.

Report · Aug 05, 2010

A friend of mine said she uses windows picture and fax viewer to print

because of that problem and it works fine.

Barbara Ann Castelloe

<link removed>

Report · Aug 05, 2010

davepinminn wrote:

Well, things have now deteriorated to the point where I"m just depressed about the whole printing thing!

Just how much is keeping that old Epson 2200 worth to you? It's just a little inkjet printer!

I can appreciate that it was once a perfectly usable printer, producing results you like, and nothing's wrong with the hardware. But really, you've burned what, tens? hundreds? of hours of time on this?

If the printer had exploded, I'll bet you'd have bought another one in a heartbeat. Think about it... From 10,000 feet this is no different.

People throw away perfectly good, working scanners all the time because software drivers don't get updated or new programs can't use them.

Frankly, software induced incompatibility gets my goat big time, and Adobe and Epson should really work this out, but if you're running a business this is an excess level of attention to be paying to a compatibility problem. Incompatibility happens. You can clearly see that neither vendor takes the problem all that seriously. It's the nature of mass market hardware and software.

Guys love an excuse to get new gear. You know you really want that new Epson Stylus Pro 11880... 64" wide prints...

-Noel

Report · Aug 05, 2010

>Just how much is keeping that old Epson 2200 worth to you? It's just a little inkjet printer!

At this point, as I scratch my now bald head (having pulled out what little hair I had left), NOT MUCH!

Mayhap I can sell the 30-40 ink cartridges on Ebay and be done with this thing.... I must confess, part of my problem is I'm thoroughly pissed at Adobe for doing the finger point when the situation seems pretty simple - it worked perfectly. It STOPPED working perfectly. What changed?

>I can appreciate that it was once a perfectly usable printer, producing results you like, and nothing's wrong with the hardware. But really, you've burned >what, tens? hundreds? of hours of time on this?

Fortunately, it's probably in the range of 10 hours, which is STILL more than it's worth.

>If the printer had exploded, I'll bet you'd have bought another one in a heartbeat. Think about it... From 10,000 feet this is no different.

True...... My perfectly functional, 5-year-old laptop smoked - and I mean literally smoke and flames came out - it was very cool. I replaced it within

24 hours. I just filed it under "feces occurs".......

>People throw away perfectly good, working scanners all the time because software drivers don't get updated or new programs can't use them.

Been there, done that.

>Frankly, software induced incompatibility gets my goat big time, and Adobe and Epson should really work this out, but if you're running a business >this is an excess level of attention to be paying to a compatibility problem. Incompatibility happens. You can clearly see that neither vendor takes >the problem all that seriously. It's the nature of mass market hardware and software.

Yeah, you're right. To paraphrase Bonnie - now that Adobe is the 800 lb gorilla, they aren't too concerned about these "little" problems.

>Guys love an excuse to get new gear. You know you really want that new Epson Stylus Pro 11880... 64" wide prints...

ACTUALLY, I'd be satisfied with the 9000 series, or even the 7000 - they take up less space, and GENERALLY 40" or so is big enough!

I was REALLY hoping I'd be absolutely blown away by the 2880 I tested last night. If I had been, there'd be one on order right now. As it is, I'm hugely gunshy about getting poor prints out of CS5 even on that hardware.

But yeah, you're right. It's time to put a bullet in this thing. Even my wife was pushing a new printer last night. The breakeven point between having things commercially printed and doing it myself is right around 180 11 x 14 prints... She figures thats a year. I figure more like 2 years.

Report · Aug 05, 2010

> Yeah, you're right. To paraphrase Bonnie - now that Adobe is the 800 lb gorilla, they aren't too concerned about these "little" problems.

We're concerned. It's just a problem that we haven't been able to replicate in-house yet, so it's really tough figuring out what's going wrong.

Report · Aug 07, 2010

Well, to help you with your research, I am sad to tell you that I encounter the EXACT same problem with my Epson 7600 on OSX 10.6.2 since I downgraded to CS5. Lost the one client that was allowing me the ownership of this printer, Thank You Adobe.

Reminds me of the Magenta cast in PS7, Adobe claiming it was the whole world's fault until the .01 patch came out and everything was good again.

Report · Aug 08, 2010

I have mixed feelings on this one. On one hand it's nice to see it affects enough other equipment that MAYBE somebody at Adobe will give a damn and do something. On the other hand, its unfortunate to be losing clients because of the situation.

Mostly, its unfortunate that, as usual, it comes down to a lot of finger pointing and treating the user's like we're too stupid to do something we've been doing successfully for years.

It used to work.

It doesn't work now.

What changed? Not the O/S. Not the print driver. Not the user's skills. Maybe its the sunspots?

Report · Aug 08, 2010

Dave, it's a shame this has gone on this long without a resolution or workaround that's worth a darn for you.

Perhaps it would be useful or helpful to ramp it up a notch: How about doing a screen grab at every single step between opening your image and exercising all the dialogs to get it printed, and posting them here. Take a photo of the print too. There's nothing like seeing the results.

Leave no step out. I know this could be tedious, but maybe with hard info on exactly what choices you're making at what steps, someone might be able to suggest a "try this" that you haven't already investigated. Might be the next best thing to having a whole host of people looking over your shoulder on site...

For example, from what I could see of an Epson printer dialog in another thread, there are choices "Color Controls", "Auto Enhance", and "ICM". I'm sure you've tried "ICM" with the "Disable" box checked. Have you tried "Color Controls"? Since this may be a problem with multiple color transforms where there should be just one, perhaps this could help by steering the printer drivers completely clear of the ICM processing.

-Noel

Printing magenta/red with CS5

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