Adobe Premiere and Colour Gamut limited to BT.709

[Ze_Povinho]

Is it true that if I import video footage shot in a wider colour gamut the BT.709 (such as S-Gamut, S-Gamut3 or S-Gamut3.Cine) , Adobe Premiere will clip the wider colour space to BT.709?
While doing some research I found that if I import footage into Adobe Premiere and drop it in a timeline and if I do any colour grading inside Premiere using the lumetri colour, the colour space will be reduced to BT.709. This made me worry because I shot footage with the Atomos Shogun Inferno and the Sony FS700R which allows to record Sony RAW. When recording I set the Gamut in the Atomos Shogun Inferno to S-Gamut. I know should had use a smaller colour space such S-Gamut3.Cine. But I used what was set by default in the Atomos Recorder. I was planing to do the editing and the colour grading in Premiere CC 2018. But then I read some people saying that if I do grading inside premiere, Adobe Premiere will convert the orignal  colour space to a reduced BT.709.

If this is true, Adobe Premiere is not recommended at all if you want to do colour grading for films that will be screened in theatres / cinemas. The wide colour space is clipped by premiere.
If so, doing colour grading in Adobe Premiere is not recommendable if one is working with footage that was recorded in colour spaces wider than BT.709. The only solution is to edit in Premiere but not apply any colour correction or grading and export the timeline in a XML format that can be used by a Professional Grading Software such as DaVinci Resolve. !
Is this true?

Thank you in advance

[chrisw44157881]

yea, i figured jpeg2000 would come into play a little bit, but you probably cannot ever enable the lut checkbox in lumetri. so wide gamut luts and 32bpc EXR's may still be a no-go. I do appreciate the post though.

also, the native jpeg2000 adobe version doesn't support lossless, only the fnord plugin does.

so the answer is probably yes, 1. If you don't use lumetri luts, 2. if you only export jpeg2000 PQ rec2020(or something more compressed), and 3. if you don't mind using lossy export codecs. This means that you cannot grade in rec. 2020 PQ? Then why bother exporting to it?

[Ze_Povinho]

Thank you Neil! Thank your for your time and interest! this is useful.

These are my conclusions.

"Premiere Pro is anticipating you to be working in a Rec. 709 colour space all the way through. This makes life fairly straight forward if you’re delivering for broadcast or the web."

Current versions of premiere allow rec2020 colour space and once premiere works in a 32bit float environment, this minimises any possible visible noticeable clipping in the colour space or loss of quality. But the fact there is no colour management in premiere may well affect the original colours of your footage if your footage has a wide gamut and you edit and export in premiere, other than xml, EDL, AAF or any other formats (depending on the destination grading software) that keep your source footage untouched. If you export as a video file you will, at some point, lose colour information regarding colour space. This is specially important if you really care about being faithful with colours from the moment you capture till the moment you export the edited footage.

Please note this is just a conclusion I made. I may be wrong.

Best regards

[rodneyb56060189]

I am happy to see such civil discourse !

I believe this statement by the engineer says it all, in favor of ZE observations....

==========

Grading operations can recover this data, but upon export, detail outside the Rec709 gamut is definitely clipped

++++++++++++++

[R Neil Haugen]

Data is clipped except for those formats listed in the above chart.

Neil

[Mathrouk]

Hello all,

Please bear with me, I'm new at this stuff, and have nowhere near the level of knowledge displayed in this thread - so this question may seem silly.

I'm just an enthusiast, shooting S-Log 2 / S-Log 3 & S-Gamut and editing on Premiere. If I followed the thread correctly, should I switch to Resolve if I want to keep the initial colour information? Should I choose a Rec.709 colour space straight in camera? Or apply a S-Log to 709 LUT to begin with in Premiere before grading?

Thanks for your help

[R Neil Haugen]

Most uses of media are still Rec.709, as the vast majority of screens from devices to televisions are still Rec.709.

So for practical end use, working the media in Premiere is fine. Premiere doesn't affect the original files in any way at all.

Neil

[Ze_Povinho]

It all depends to where you are producing. If it is for the web or standard TV you will be fine doing all in premiere. If you producing for HDR displays (web and TV  included once you can have HDR content on both), you must be more careful when deciding which colour spaces to work with, the codec you select for recording the footage and if is supported by Premiere HDR workflow. Please refer to the table Neil provided in a previous response (correct answer).  If t you are producing for the big screen and your film will be projected by professional cinema projectors, doing grading in Premiere can be trick iand DaVinci Resolve is better prepared to deal with footage from different cameras with different colour spaces. DaVinci Resolve has a better colour management system than Premiere (which didn´t had any until recently). This is specially important if you care about keeping faithful  to the original colours captured by the camera and avoid colour shifts or prioritisation.
This is why some professional studios use premiere for editing and do treat the colour (colour correction and grading) in other applications such as DaVinci Resolve.
If you do the editing in Premiere, please make sure that you do not change the source video by applying effects, text, etc. Anything that changes the native source video (except cuts  / editing) may affect the colour of your video source.
You should export from premiere timeline in any format that does not need to convert video, such as XML or AAF. This will keep your source video untouched.

First of all you should know when is suitable to shot log. Not all situations are suitable for shooting in log.

Then you must know what colour space you will be using. Selecting the right / most suitable gamma and the right colour space is important. If you are filming at 8bit (depends on the camera you use and the codec used for the video), then using wide colour spaces may also not be advisable. If you are using a Sony Camera and shooting at 8bit, then I would stay with S-Log2 for gamma and S-Gamut for colour space or just use a cinegamma such as Cine2 or Cine4, or hypergama Rec709 800%.

The same applies to when using S-Log3 gamma, if recording 8bit footage, then stay with S-Gamut3.cine colour space.
But if S-log2 is not recommended for 8 bit footage, then S-Log3 is even less recommended than s-log2 for 8 bit footage, specially when it comes to skin tones. You may get more dynamic range by using log curves in 8 bit video, but colours may fail at some point.

If you want to know more, just take a look at this and also read part 1 (this is part 2)

Colour management, part 2

My concluions after some research I did (please note that I may be wrong) is that if you are recording at 8bit like many DLSR cameras do, then is best to stick with S-LOG2 and use S-Gamut. If your camera records at 10bit, then S-Log3 and S-Gamut3.cine may be a good choice, although you won't go wrong by staying with S-log2 gamma and s-gamut colour space. But this will depend on the shooting conditions once s-log gamma is not recommended for low light situations. These gamma curves are made for scenarios with lots of light and shadows (wide dynamic range). You don’t need log when the scene only has a limited dynamic range. In Sony cameras cinegammas or hypergamma will work better in low light scenarios, but you will need to know how to expose correctly in camera for each different gamma curve in particular. Other camera brands may have different names for gamma curves (Panasonic call them “Film Rec”).

These conclusions are not limited to Sony cameras.

And by the way, I would try to record everything in ProRes, if possible. ProRes seams to be quite good respecting colour information and works nice in most editing and grading softwares. And also to have an HDR monitor both during capture and grading.

Will a bigger recording Gamut give me more picture information? | XDCAM-USER.COM

Why use Luts? Why use luts when shooting s-Log?
(The LUT’s that you use must be designed for the gamma curve and colour space that the material was shot in and the gamma curve and colorspace you want to end up in.)
LUTs for LOG: Why You Should Use a LUT with LOG Footage - DaVinci Resolve 14 - YouTubeIn case you are wondering about HLG (as I did), here is some information:

What is HLG and what is it supposed to be used for? | XDCAM-USER.COM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2iqEDUe1qg

Sony Picture Profiles & Dynamic Range Guide (Cine vs S-Log vs HLG) - YouTube

Tips on exposing for S-Log gammas (example with sony a7s)
Exposing and Using S-Log2 on the Sony A7s (or any other Alpha camera). Part One: Gamma and Exposure....

Last but not the least, here is an article I think is can be useful for any video editor / colourist / filmmaker.
https://jonnyelwyn.co.uk/film-and-video-editing/colour-management-for-video-editors/?fbclid=IwAR33vp...

I hope this helps.

cheers

[Mathrouk]

Thank you so very much. This is incredibly helpful.

Indeed I record externally in ProRes HQ with an Atomos Ninja V and use a Cine 4 / S.Gamut3.cine profile for low-light situations.

I'm still a bit unclear however whether I should activate the HDR Lumetri on Premiere (as it grays out the Creative tab). I'll definitely look into the link you sent me Ze_Povinho - thank you again for that.

Also, and apologies if that should belong to another thread altogether, but when I drag my Ninja file to create a Sequence, Premiere automatically create the sequence with DNxHR settings. Should I opt to use that setting in the Ninja V instead of ProRes? I eventually manually customise the sequence with ProRes HQ to match the setting on the Ninja (and also because I use a Mac). But is there a specific reason why Premiere would automatically attribute DNxHR setting to a Ninja clip?

Thanks -

[R Neil Haugen]

Pr looks at the full info for the media involved, then goes down the alphanumeric list of sequence presets and selects the first one that matches the media. It doesn't mean squat. It's just matching data.

HDR in Pr is limited to being able to get a ghost of what is happening with the media in the scopes. The internal monitors aren't designed to properly display anything wider than Rec 709. With all the various HDR settings enabled for controls, the monitors are the weak spot.

Having an external box from say Blackmagic running a monitor would get around that. Mostly.

Neil

[Ze_Povinho]

Neil just responded to your questions. In my case, I use the blackmagic mini monitor 4k which is not expensive and I connect the Atomos Shogun Inferno via SDI just like I would used when connected to the camera. Then I also have a Asus 4k 10bit monitor for the timeline and premiere monitors (Source and Program) and another monitor just for the tools and pannels.
I use the Asus 4k monitor to control the image quality (gradations, sharpness, etc.) and the Atomos Shogun Inferno to control the colour. But once again, at this stage you may consider doing grading in another software.

[rodneyb56060189]

I am probably confusing the issue...but in my opinion....as Neil said...

most exports will be rec 709 anyway, so staying with PPro is probably a good idea for you.

In my opinion, shoot your S log stuff or whatever you camera can give you for wide gamut stuff...which gives you more F stop latitude than shooting rec 709 right in the camera.

Adjust as you like in PPro ( to rec 709 space which is INHERENT in ppro program monitor ) so the S log stuff looks nice..

I may be wrong, but I think if you shoot the S log and stick it in PPro you'll have a more robust 'adjustment' available to you to get the blacks and whites and midtones ( lift gain gamma ) where you are happy.  More than likely, if you shot at the right color temp you won't have to adjust color that much.

[Ze_Povinho]

Glad that this helps. Regarding the gamma for low light, you may also try cine2 and see which results better for you.
I asked myself the same question regarding sequence settings but I think you will be fine by just doing what you did. In my case I do not have ProRes presents for the sequences so I just work with "Custom".  But maybe someone else here knows the correct answer to your question.
Here is a video about that:
FAQ: How do I choose the right sequence settings?

Regarding the HDR workflow in Premiere, I am still digging on it so I do not have a response for you.

[Ze_Povinho]

Meanwhile I found this:

"Create a sequence with uncompressed video playback

For the highest-quality previews of sequences on an SDI card or device connected to an external monitor, use one of the uncompressed formats for preview files. Uncompressed 8 bit (4:2:2 YUV) is suitable for projects meant for SD output, while Uncompressed 10 bit (4:2:2 YUV) is best for projects meant for HD. Also, with Uncompressed 10-bit (4:2:2 YUV) and high bit-depth color rendering Premiere Pro uses the color information in 10-bit assets and up samples other assets in a sequence to generate 10-bit preview files. Premiere Pro delivers the best preview performance when using these preview file formats on a system with a supported SD-SDI or HD-SDI card installed.

Both these uncompressed formats do subsample video files at 4:2:2 YUV. Unlike the other file formats available for preview files, they do not then run the video data through a compressor. They are called uncompressed because they do not add this second layer of compression. And hence retain much higher color depth in the previews than the compressed formats. Therefore, uncompressed preview files can be quite a bit larger than compressed preview files."

More info here:

Create and change sequences in Premiere Pro

Any way, I think you will be fine (if the footage is coming from Atomos recorder in ProRes) to define the sequence settings with the same characteristics of your source footage. And this will reduce the size of your previews which will be quite large if you use uncompressed video for the  previews. I think Quicktime ProRes 422 or ProRes HQ  will work just fine. But this is just me thinking. If you really want to make sure you get the best quality possible for the previews, then use uncompressed video. and make sure you assign fast and large capacity drive just for the  previews.

[Mathrouk]

You guys are awesome. Thanks so much for your help.

[Ze_Povinho]

Here is something that can be useful.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRJAR9FR1Uo

How to Make Great Videos: Color (Part 3) | Lumetri Scopes, LUTs, Color Wheels and HDR - YouTube

[R Neil Haugen]

Always interesting to watch Jason.

A few comments  ....Pr is the only app I know of where the correction/technical LUT application is processed *before* any trim correction. Period.

There's a reason no other app or teacher of note applies a tech correction LUT for say log media without planning for trim correction being done before the LUT.

LUTs clip. Hard.

And tech correction LUTs are built in Ideal situations with perfect color lighting,  contrast, and exposure. They're perfect for media "shot in Heaven". Which ain't what you're gonna get too often.

So ... within Lumetri, you should apply any tech/correction LUT in the Creative tab, and use the Basic tab controls to "trim" tonal values prior to the LUT. Use the Basic tab to make the image look good both in scopes and monitor.

Then use either the rest of that Lumetri instance for further neutralization and feel or apply another instance named for that workflow.

And Jason mentioned that the Color Wheels are oft used with colorist's control panels. The Tangent Ripple and the various Palette controls can be had for under $400. They can be mapped for Basic, Creative, Color Wheels and HSL  tabs usage.

Within a few hours you will both be several times faster in color correction,  AND will be achieving things you cannot get to with a mouse or tablet. Working multiple controls simultaneously allows you to see interactions that you can not see while moving one thing, then another, then back one control at a time.

A couple colorists I know give data on this ... they can grade to a pro level 100 or maybe 120 clips in a day with a mouse. A Ripple will get them above 200. A full Tangent Elements panel will get them to 270 to 300 clips a day.

And in Resolve with the $30,000 full surface, Robbie will hit 500 or better clips per day.

For under $400, a Ripple or Palette setup will double your speed and improve the work done at the same time. That will pay for itself pretty quickly.

Oh. My. Do I love my Elements panel ... and I've mapped those wonderful buttons, knobs, and ball/ring combinations to other commands in Pr outside of color. What an incredible tool to use and keep your eyes focused on your monitors.

Neil

[Ze_Povinho]

Thanks Neil! This is good info!
I was just reading an article from Alister Chapman, which is not directly related with the topic of this thread, but there are some things that made me wonder about working with colours in premiere.
Basically it has to do with the way premiere handles and assumes footage characteristics by default. But then, there is no way to change that in case the footage is wrongly interpreted by Premiere. Premiere is assuming that what you have is for TV...
In this particular case it has to do on how ProRes footage shot in S-log2 with an external recorder is interpreted by default when it comes to legal and/or full ranges for video signals. Premiere seem to assume that ProRes will be in the legal range even if it is in the full range and there is no way to change that.
Maybe I am wrong... not sure.

"If you don’t do this DaVinci Resolve will assume the ProRes file to be legal range and it will scale the clip incorrectly in the same way as Premiere does. But if you tell Resolve the clip is full range then it is handled correctly."
...
"Handling a full range clip as legal range means that highlights will be too high/bright or clipped and blacks will be crushed. So it’s really important that your software handles the footage correctly."

I am willing that Premier can improve on the colour aspect. this will make Premiere almost an unbeatable platform / software for any filmmaker.

here is the article:

Sony's Internal Recording Levels Are Correct. | XDCAM-USER.COM

[R Neil Haugen]

Great posting of information.

Neil

[tgrdano]

Hi Neil I was wondering if there have been any more developments/workflow for properly exporting a P3 out of Premiere?

[R Neil Haugen]

Premiere can export to Rec.2020/2100 standards which are larger than P3, as they are designed for the HDR material. In a few format/preset/option settings, it can also use the P3D65 color space for exports.

Note, the P3 color space is a very different thing, not really connected with HDR. The two main uses are P3-DCI (Theater) and P3-D60 (ACES Cinema). It is of course in heavy current use for SDR media in theatrical release/projection use. In HDR for theatrical release, the color space is still the wider Rec.2020 one.

But there are a couple ways to get P3 from Premiere.

The JPEG 2000 MXF format allows you to select P3D65 color primaries. Select the format, then  the top option in the Preset box, then down below in "Chroma and Depth" select the PQ option. At that point you can select Color Primaries, take the P3D65 option. This process is the only one that doesn't seem to assume the export is an HDR file.

For the HDR exports, for example ... H.264 or H.265:

• Format of H.264, H.265,
• then select the Adobe Stock DCI preset
• in the Video tab, select "Render at Maximum Depth"
• High Dynamic Range
• Include HDR10 metadata

Then another box below opens up, and you can select the primaries, Rec.709, P3D65, or Rec.2020. There are two boxes below for setting the min/max brightness that seem to assume of course that you are producing HDR ... which puzzles me. HDR by standards is Rec.2020, not P3. This is as shown in the pic below. 

Neil

 

[tgrdano]

Neil thanks for the quick response. I understand that HDR and P3 are very different. I am trying to master a DCI P3 for theater use out of Premiere. Our editor has to re-apply some speed ramps and other effects, hence why I would like to avoid having to master out or Resolve.

I did a test export using the settings in the first method you suggest jpeg2000 mfx - however when I bring it into resolve in P3 timeline it looks very flat. Any suggestions of what I could be doing wrong. Thanks! 

[R Neil Haugen]

That could be from a number of things, including various settings in Resolve. You might check what CM Resolve is applying to both that clip and the timeline it's on.

Neil