Breaking My Tools. :(

[CoralVision]

Oh, come on Adobe staff people!

Regarding the changes to titles and graphics workflow in CC17.1:

I understand you want your titling workflow to be as easy and effective as the Motion->FCP7 workflow was back in 2009, but you've missed the mark again!

PLUS, you have this miserable pattern of removing functional tools that I use everyday, and replacing them with completely new "features" that fail to reproduce the functionality of the old tools (e.g. those "obsolete audio effects" in the last update).

Please, don't take away old tools until the new ones are ready to do real work!!

I am so sick of being your beta-tester! I am trying to work over here!

Very frustrated.

Eric D - CoralVision

[andymees@aje]

For those who may be interested (and I appreciate that may only be me)  MOGRT files are basically just a zip bundle containing a bare bones Premiere Pro Project file (with a new extension,  'prgraphic' ),  a definition file and a thumbnail image (for the Essential Graphics panel to display)...  the project file holds a sequence containing a Title instance

Last weekend I tried subverting one, changing the contents of the sequence to a Legacy Title instance... it was a fun experiment, but although my Frankenstien's monster loaded up in the Essential Graphics panel just fine, when I added an instance of my 'graphic' to the timeline the new payload was sadly missing in action.  Oh well,  it was worth a try. 

Cheers

Andy

[Roei Tzoref]

Thank you James.

I wish someone could help me figure out if there is a way to make global update to multiple MOGRTs that are already in my sequences. it seems that the lack of a source file for the MOGRT's is potentially devastating to a project. I see no master source in Premiere's MOGRTs workflow, or Ae's, that can offer a type of functionality that supports a global change. I suspect that the workflow currently is not suitable for real professional work.

bare with me ladies and gentlemen

Case of point #1:

I have a premiere project with 20 sequences. each sequence contains 10 graphic titles I made in premiere and placed between my clips. the MOGRT/graphic layer is a lower third: blue color shape and a text layer with "Arial" typeface.

now the producer calls and says: "Roei, we have to change the lower third color to Green! and typeface should be Comic Sans!"

me: "you know Alex, I am still waiting for that money transfer from the previous gig, wha-"

producer:"never mind that now, we need these changes made - Yesterday!"

me: "don't worry, it's easy! I am actually using these new motion graphic templates, it's an amazing feat-"

producer: "just tell me when it's done"

me: "I'll have it done TODAY!"

o.k... well... let's see... I changed one graphic... maybe create a MOGRT out of it.. now how do I..... o.k what do I do??? panic starts settling in...  how can I make this global change to all of them? master graphic is not helping here.

Case of point #2:

a week later, I have a premiere project with 20 sequences. each sequence contains 10 MOGRTs I made in After Effects, exported as MOGRT, and placed between my clips. the MOGRT is a lower third: a crafted expression rigged animated lower third in the blue color and a text layer with "Arial" typeface.

the phone rings: "Roei!, listen..."

me: "don't tell me!, the color and typeface, right?"

producer: "NO!, the color and fonts are fine. but we need the animation to be faster and we need another line of stroke under the title".

me: "no problem, this is different than that last premiere template fiasco. this time it's after effects templates so there's actually a sourc-"

producer: "I don't care, you're the expert!"

me: "you really think so?? gee, thank-" (he hangs up)

o.k... well... I make the changes to the master project file in After Effects ... now let's see

I need to:

1. export the MOGRT again from Ae in a new name

2. in premiere drag the template from the EGP to the timeline

3. replace one by one in all my sequences, on all the previous MOGRT clips, Alt+Drag to replace. one by one.... 200 graphic titles...(?)

in contrast, if I would make these graphic titles with live text templates I would have to:

1. change the animation in the Ae composition that is linked to aep source file in premiere and that's it. it updates to all the instances, retaining the text changes I made in premiere. yes in Live Text Templates I can only change text in premiere. I am losing the functionality of controlling animation, color and all the property controllers, but at least I have a source and a way to control a global change. if I need specific more detailed change to each lower third, I would set it up "the old way" (coming next)

in contrast, if I would do create these templates as 100 rendered video files from Ae (like the old days):

1. in Ae, I would make the necessary changes in all the precomps, render those files

2. in premiere, replace footage of the old files from the bin, or simply run over the old files...

Workaround for replacing master source file of the Ae MOGRTs: (not really, but just to show it can work):

1. instead of working from the original aep file and exporting a mogrt, I locate the aegraphic file by right clicking on the MOGRT in the bin and reveal in explorer/finder

2. open that file in After Effects

3. make the change.

4. now it works like Live Text Templates and will update automatically in Premiere when I change anything.

this workaround works when I just change the animation or the media in the MGT and I don't need to change the EGP parameters themselves in any way. of I do need to change the parameters themselves (modify different ones, change some basic settings)  I have no way of replacing all my instances of graphic templates across my sequences. there is no replace source for this, again.. one by one... very painful.

Conclusion so far: the big drawback to this whole feature appears to be the lack of ability to replace a source.

for a premiere project that contains more than several MOGRTs, for now, If I just need to replace a text, I would leave the animation in After Effects project file and import to Premiere. the animation will be fully controlled in Ae and global change will be respected, and premiere will contain the text. amazingly productive. if I need to make each lower third a bit different, I would use the classic method of creating these in Ae as different compositions and render them or DL them to premiere. each one with it's Ae source.

other users sharing these type of problems with this workflow:

Re: Motion Graphics - Limits & Frustrations when put to actual use.

Workflow with Essential Graphics templates and sharing with customers

Methods for updating Motion Graphics from Ae to PPro (same Op as the 1st post)

[andymees@aje]

Hey Roei

Unfortunately ExtendScript doesn't yet support the new Graphics / Titles functionality... it never supported the old Title functionality either. But apparently a significant overhaul is in the works,  so fingers crossed. There's no public time frame for when it's coming tho. We live in hope.

Andy

[Roei Tzoref]

Hi and thank you Andy.

I an not quite familiar with the term ExtendScript or it's relation to this issue. I am guessing this means there's a programming feature that's currently missing that would help with this issue. feel free to elaborate.

[andymees@aje]

Hey Roei

ExtendScript is the scripting language used in creating helper tools that work with Adobe's apps ... its the part of the language that directly interacts with the application. For example, 3rd party extensions like those from Audio Network, Frame.io, Vimeo etc ... these are created using HTNL5, JavaScript and ExtendScript.

Premiere Pro Developer Center | Adobe Developer Connection

It's not something that most would be keen to take on, but those that do (to create bespoke helper apps etc either for private or commercial use)  are obviously limited by the functionality available. Creating a tool to handle global changes for Title Item properties is exactly the sort of thing you 'ought' to be able to do with it ... but currently can't.

Does that make sense?

Andy

[Roei Tzoref]

Thank you. I get it know. you are suggesting that some kind of 3rd party plugin or script tool could maybe assist in this issue but it can't because mogrts are not supported yet for the programming of such a thing. don't you think such a source feature is fundamental and should be native in the application? I suspect there's something fundamentally impaired in the way this new feature works if it's more than just a few titles. it appears at first to offer flexibility but at some point it creates the opposite.

[andymees@aje]

...don't you think such a source feature is fundamental and should be native in the application?

Natively being able to change attributes of multiple selected title items would certainly be a nice addition!

[jstrawn]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Roei+Tzoref  wrote

other users sharing these type of problems with this workflow:

Re: Motion Graphics - Limits & Frustrations when put to actual use.

Workflow with Essential Graphics templates and sharing with customers

Methods for updating Motion Graphics from Ae to PPro  (same Op as the 1st post)

1st - you're welcome, my pleasure...

2nd - As you pointed out, that problem has already been discussed in detail on other threads recently, so that could probably all be condensed, or perhaps even moved into one of those other threads to keep things more readable for other usable.

So we fully understand the problem as well as the scenarios that could lead to such a problem. It's just that that round tripping in that way is not yet possible using the current mogrt workflows. But the older Live Text Templates (aecap and acap) workflows are still supported, not to mention the legacy titler, so you haven't lost the ability to ripple changes to modified templates as you would have in past versions. If you're worried about those things going away soon, I can't speak to that, but I can tell you that what you want is a good feature request and should certainly be submitted as such --> Feature Request/Bug Report Form

Thank you for your feedback!

[Roei Tzoref]

2nd - As you pointed out, that problem has already been discussed in detail on other threads recently, so that could probably all be condensed, or perhaps even moved into one of those other threads to keep things more readable for other usable.

Thank you James.

The reason I am posting this here and making another effort to raise a discussion is:

1. There is a need for me to summarize this whole drawback in a clear and comprehensive manner. I have wrote similar posts in other places, but not as accurate. now, I imagine I have included all there is in one post. this is for my own understanding and for other users understanding.

2. The discussions in the posts I mentioned did not continue further. no other users other than me and Op, and you in one of the posts. in the 1st post, there is you addressing some of the issues and thanks for that, but the discussion moved on a bit and stopped. in the 2nd post there's only me and Op with no discussion, in the 3rd it's the same as the 2nd but it's really the precursor of the 1st post so that's o.k.

3. Warning, heads up!, (again) to all the users that may rush into implementing mogrts into their workflows in a true complex project and not just playing around or small projects, finding out only in the end the realities of this workflow - that if there is a global modification required, they are stuck and that any such change will be painful. very much.

4. Get the discussion fully addressed by Adobe. maybe again, maybe in more specific way to the issues described. also, maybe there's a way that I am not aware to remedy some of it.

To be clear, you addressed it now to my satisfaction.

So we fully understand the problem as well as the scenarios that could lead to such a problem.

I needed to know that. maybe again. thank you

But the older Live Text Templates (aecap and acap) workflows are still supported

I am not familiar with "acap", only "aecap", which was a way to create a capsule in Ae for premiere - you can't make those anymore in Ae in 14.2 so I guess you mean old aecap projects are respected.

I can tell you that what you want is a good feature request and should certainly be submitted as such --> Feature Request/Bug Report Form

I will file a feature request, but I feel this is such a big deal, I mean, the MOGRT king is naked really, so it's obvious what a course of action is needed here to fix its weakness. hopefully it won't bite too many users in the a@@ before that happens.

[Premiopolis]

This is a really important point Roei Tzoref​ makes --

Warning, heads up!, (again) to all the users that may rush into implementing mogrts into their workflows in a true complex project and not just playing around or small projects, finding out only in the end the realities of this workflow - that if there is a global modification required, they are stuck and that any such change will be painful. very much.

It may be fascinating, challenging and fun to play around with Essential Graphics and Live Text Templates on small projects, but it's benefits are minimal and it's only feasible at a 'toying around' level.  If you try to employ it in a high-pressure, fast-paced, or complex production environment, it doesn't just fail to perform, it's a bit of a Trojan Horse -- proving to be a serious setback the more you commit to it.

The challenge for the Adobe dev side is that it takes a lot of moving parts: functionality, workflow, seamlessness, feature-richness -- and all have to be well-considered, in concert with one another and operating on all cylinders before it becomes a professional  tool.  But once it does it's a phenomenal, game-changing breakthrough that no other post / texted graphics system seems to have even contemplated.  Rooting big time for Adobe.

[Premiopolis]

So we just did a project -- a series of short-form interview with a title graphics and lower thirds -- using Live Text Templates and AE-genereated MOGRTs both to get a feel for the workflow.

The Live Text Templates worked.  After careful consideration we abandoned the MOGRTS and replaced them with Live Text Templates.

What was compelling about the MOGRTS was the ability copy paste in the timeline multiple instances of the MOGRTS, and they are instantly independent of one another -- no need to generate new bin instances for each text change.  But therein also lies the flaw.  If you were to re-use MOGRT instances, say with all the same name, and subsequently confront a global text change, there's no reliable or convenient way to update all the MOGRTS across multiple sequences with reasonable certainty.

Live Text Templates are better in this regard.  Each bin instance of an LTT holds the text, and any change to that instance's text entry reliably updates all timeline instances, across all sequences that made use of it.  Additional benefits of LTTs: Updates to the AE Comp instantly and automatically updates all PPro uses of that Comp.

MOGRTs by contrast require a copious amount of time and effort to update: After making the changes in AE they must be saved through Essential Graphics on the AE Side, saved to a folder, retrieved via Essential Graphics on the PPro side, where they replace an existing instance in Essential Graphics, but nowhere else, then dragged to a timeline in order to appear in the project where they create a new instance which cannot be merged with a prior, and finally replace-edited manually to the timeline.  That clunky voyage from AE to PPro is the biggest (horse and buggy would be quicker) but by no means only deal-breaker.

Of course, what you lose by abandoning MOGRTs is the ability to pass custom controls, beyond text, from AE to PPro.

So some thoughts in summary regarding the automation of texted graphics:

1 - There are three core tasks involved: The Graphics template (AE design), The Data (the text itself), and the placement in timelines on the PPro side.  An able editor can certainly operate all three, but for more complex, professional, high paced work environments, there should be an option to split those tasks into three departments: Graphic Designer, Data Wrangler, Editor.  Done right the editor only does placement.  Graphic designer develops templates, and the data wrangler maintains a list of names/titles etc, responsible for all spelling.  Do that and PPro triumphs over all its competitors who (best as I can tell) aren't even cognizant of this time-gobbling area of post production.

[Roei Tzoref]

Glad you worked it out Premiopolis . I would recommend using Live Text Template over Motion Graphics Template for the foreseeable future.

[Premiopolis]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Roei+Tzoref  wrote

Glad you worked it out Premiopolis  . I would recommend using Live Text Template over Motion Graphics Template for the foreseeable future.

Agreed.  Live Text Templates live.  Mogrts don't yet make the cut.

After spending time with both, it may be possible to boil the distinctions down to a few  main points:

Live Text Templates

  - Update in PPro live the moment the AE is saved.

  - AE text is the only property that can be changed on the PPro side.

MOGRTS

  - Cannot be edited except by AE artist.  Good for controlled work environments.

  - Do not update live.  Must be passed through the Motion Graphics Panel from AE to PPro.  This is not just mildly cumbersome, there are multiple layers of impediments to making this a practical workflow.

If you imagine a change on the Live Text Templates, one that builds in the MOGRT ability to control which properties and text entries are passed to PPro, then the only real distinction would be that MOGRTS accommodate a workflow that restricts editors from making changes to the AE source file.

SO feature request (http://www.adobe.com/products/wishform.html)

Add MOGRT functionality to Live Text Templates

How would you like the feature to work?

Add to LTTs (Live Text Templates) the ability to control which text fields and AE properties can be passed to PPro for control, same as MOGRT.  In other words, changes applied to the AE Motion Graphics panel are written to the AE file, so that whether it's passed as a MOGRT or an LTT, the permissions and restrictions given to PPro are respected.

Why is this feature important to you?

That additional functionality added to the existing Live-updating that makes LTT's a valuable and breakthrough feature wold be extremely powerful to a text graphics workflow.

[Roei Tzoref]

Thank you P. for your efforts to make this subject clear and concise. I have been doing it too for a while. I having been passing this information in every channel I know and I am sure this was heard loud and clear. hopefully this will happen soon. in the meantime, let me leave all the mograph fans with me saying: Don't believe the Hype!