Exports losing saturation out of Premiere

[jamesm85755905]

I don't know why but anything I export out of Premiere seems to be losing about a 15% loss in saturation, maybe a little contrast too.

Format: H.264

[R Neil Haugen]

How are you determining this? By viewing in a playback app on your computer?

PrPro works internally in the international broadcast standard of sRGB/Rec.709, and will attempt to show that in the monitors inside the application. It will export to that standard. If you check the box on the export dialog, "import into project" and view the import within PrPro, does it look the same as the original project?

If the answer is yes, then the problem you're having is you're not viewing the export properly to standards. As in, you're using say QuickTime player which is infamous for being color-stuupid, as opposed to color-managed. Other problems are monitors not in sRGB color space, such as the newer Mac monitors that are P3, or say viewing in color-stuupid browsers like Chrome and Safari ... Firefox currently being the only color-aware browser.

Neil

[jamesm85755905]

Hi Neil,

Thanks for your response.

Yes it looks the same when imported into the project. I am viewing through QuickTime, Safari and also through my iPhone via airdrop. I have read in previous articles that the colour space is incorrect in Quicktime and certain web browsers. What l don't understand is, why is Quicktime displaying incorrect colours yet it does not display incorrect colours if I use it to watch a Hollywood Film or an export from FCPX?

So if Premiere is exporting according to sRGB/Rec.709, the problem l'm facing then is, what settings will best match what the majority of people will be viewing my content on. As l do marketing videos, I've found the majority of viewers to watch content on an iPhone via Facebook or Instagram.

So the colour space on an iPhone and the Facebook app using an iPhone is displaying incorrect colours as well?

James

[chrisw44157881]

apple screens use adaptive color profiles (Truetone) to automatically change the white balance and brightness of video. on top of that, chrome changes the native white point of images. How far you want to go down the rabbit hole is entirely up to you. for example, do most of your viewers watch video in a subway or in a dark car with green seats reflecting back? last I checked sRGB at gamma 2.2 is the most generic you can use across platforms.

[R Neil Haugen]

How do you know that you're seeing correct color/tonality from anything else on your system?

You're not thinking this through. So ... given that Quicktime and Chrome don't manage color correctly  ... and every screen out there is different from every other screen ... what DO broadcast and film professionals deliver for?

So you think they grade by sitting down with uncalibrated gear and just do what looks good on some monitor that just came with the computer?

I'm quite serious here.

Neil

[jamesm85755905]

Sorry Neil l'm not trying to sound like a smartass, all my questions are sincere questions not metaphorical. I know that colour grading professionals grade on screens like Flanders. What l can't understand is what is happening with my Premiere exports. When l watch a video exported from Premiere on Quicktime and VLC, the colours change. This makes sense as people like yourself have said that Quicktime is horrible with colours. Yet when I watch a film or a video exported from FCPX on Quicktime and VLC there is no difference in colour.

Also whats your knowledge/thoughts on the iPhone screens? They seem to display the colours the same as Safari or Quicktime to me.

[R Neil Haugen · Accepted solution]

Then I would hazard a guess that FCPx either isn't working appropriately or that Apple is working to support their in-house app in a way not extended to others. I'm not on any Mac gear so I can't check.

Especially with your comment that FCPx exports look the same in both QuickTime and VLC ... intriguing.

I can only say that the "pro" material you're watching was 90% or more graded in Rec709 (with the exception of a few theatrical releases) with high-end sRGB monitors that are calibrated with spectro-photometers that run $5k/up using SpectraCal or CalMan to get delta-e values under 1.0. And exported as Rec709/sRGB media.

There have been some peeks at the data from PrPro exports on this or that computer that seem to have certain 'tags' set wrong. That could be an issue for specific files at times ... but when they go into Resolve, another pro and highly color managed app, they get read correctly. Period.

So Resolve sees the output of PrPro correctly ... in nearly all circumstances.

On my Win10 machine, it's never an issue. I know QuickTime will display color crap. My exports go into Resolve beautifully. They play on YouTube or Vimeo as I'd expect, which is never "perfectly the same" as they do in PrPro or VLC, but looking very similar to pro-produced material on those platforms viewed on my computer.

You could try downloading the free version of Resolve. You can only use that to export up to 1080p,  4k is reserved for the paid version. But ... import a file from PrPro, see how it looks in Resolve. Leave Resolve set to the defaults of "auto" for video/data levels and for Rec709 for color space. Export from Resolve. See how it looks.

Neil

[jamesm85755905]

Thanks for that Neil. That answered all my questions! Cheers!

[R Neil Haugen]

When I started 6 years back, I immediately ran into funky saturation and gamma ("contrast") problems and I got pretty cranky about it.

And got schooled rather thoroughly if not always gently by some experienced editors and colorists. So I have put some effort into understanding what goeth on under the hood.

Note, we owned and ran a full color lab doing pro portrait printing for our own and other picky pro portrait photogs. 25 years or so of daily precise quality checks and graphed test control strips. I understand working to tight professional calibrated standards. Just had to learn how to do it in pro video.

Which, like running and processing color control strips through a big color paper processor and the graphing densitometer, can be a bit complicated.

Neil

[andrewcbb]

Neil,

Seen your responses in multiple chats. You need to relax, you come across very arsey and negative. Please take a break and have a kitkat. Already seen you apologise once for being unhelpfully rude.

Love

Andy

[R Neil Haugen]

Always intrigued to see how people react to each other. I occasionally get some comment like this, which is welcome. I far more often get a grateful thanks for taking time to give details that really help someone with something.

Sometimes folks think that something should work one way and don't want to take time to rethink or learn some information to show it things do work as compared to how they think things work. Eventually I can become rather direct. I try to stay in a straight info mode when possible.

Especially when someone puts a huge chunk of change into gear only to find that it can't do what they expected without mods or different processes, they can get rather huffy about having to do something they don't think they should have to.

Color is a biggie there. Quite a few people are stunned when their shiny new rig produces something that doesn't match their expectations. Been there done that. I'm much gentler than the guys and gals that have me the most useful comments when I started asking stuff though.

One way or another you have to get learned enough to get the work out the door. Quicker is better. And learning enough to plan your gear purchases wisely makes for a calmer life also.

Neil

[Carlos Ziade]

Consider buying something like the Flanders Scientific calibrated monitors and Color Grade/correct based on those,

do not rely on video players and your computer monitors as Neil suggested.

Its the same like when you are shooting, professional DOPs do never rely on their camera's viewfinder or screen,

you see them always looking through broadcast monitors, why ? to get colors and exposure as accurate as possible.

phones, tablets, apps and online youtube and vimeo have their own color methods, that apply automatically, so we should

not judge based on those. We have to export the most accurate colors from our timeline, and to do this, monitor through

tools that are made for this task, external broadcast monitors (some of them come with both sRGB/Rec. 709 options)

Last, Neil is the best resource here when it comes to color stuff !

[R Neil Haugen]

Carlos ... thanks! ... but there are others here with very sound color advice also, some whom I happily bow to as I learn from them.

For any of us, we are the result of what we've learned and and what we've tested to destruction. It's how thoughts and what we read and heard become Knowledge.

Neil

[jennarrative]

James, I've read through all of this and don't see that anyone has answered your question adequately. I'm having the same problem. Does anyone have advice about what export settings to use in Premiere Pro to avoid the loss of contrast and saturation?

[R Neil Haugen]

You're not getting a loss of sat or contrast because of the export. Am I correct you're on a fairly new Mac, and perhaps with a P3 monitor?

If that's the case, you've a number of potential issues. First ... color/contrast/tonality are not an absolute everything everywhere "thing". There are some commonly used standards, but some apps pay no attention to them. Such as QuickTime player, and Safari and Chrome browsers.

Some apps utilize part ... such as Apple's OS it seems, and FCPx.

And some like PrPro utilize both parts.

The main current standard is Rec 709, which has 2 parts, the original camera transform curves, and the display transform function of the Bt 1886 addendum to Rec 709.

Premiere Pro uses the complete Rec 709 internally,  and attempts to display in the program monitor what the correct view should be on a properly setup/calibrated monitor. There's a new option in the 13.x/2019 PrPro to "enable display management", which is an attempt to match the apps display to the computer/monitor setup of the computer.

There are some who say the use of Bt 1886 is a potential trouble point in case the eventual user has a contrast screen. In that case, grading with the slightly lifted deep shadow curve function of Bt 1886 could cause the darks to appear crushed. And therefore argue against it.

Having read tons on this I'm not convinced as that argument is designed to protect maybe 10% of the screens out there, and material graded accordingly will appear with lifted deep shadows on the majority of screens.

It's a problem though as the recent Macs are set to work with only the camera transform functions and not the display ones.

If you have the enable display management option turned on, it may help. To be absolutely certain of proper levels for pro broadcast does require the use of an external device like those from Blackmagic, AJA, and Kona designed to feed a monitor through that boxes calibrated LUT setup... and using a monitor like the Flanders rigs.

And as always, trust the scopes over your eyes for blacks/whites.

Neil

[alexdepew]

I had this issue and this video really helped me out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t61b6Nk-YPw

[m0nty]

This is the correct response here alex. 

[m0nty]

This is not the correct answer. This needs to be updated. 

Edit: nevermind this still didnt work perfectly.