'Frame substitution recursion attempt aborting after multiple attempts on file'

[mackinnonfilmmaking]

Hi everyone, 

I've got a problem that I think others have had, I'm trying to use MXF video files in a project I'm working on, the quality of the video is the main priority (Audio has been recorded separately so there's no audio on the MXF video files). I've already tried using MP4 but the quality has reduced significantly so that's a no-go. After importing the MXF files, the error sign lights up, and 'Frame substitution recursion attempt aborting after multiple attempts on file' is the issue every time. I've imported it under different Video rendering and playback options but no luck there. Each time I've tried importing the MXF files, the number of errors alternates, sometimes there are loads, other times there are less. Does anyone know what to do to fix it? 

[Michael Grenadier]

did you check the color space as I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread?  Also, try this (first duplicate the file in case there are any issues):  try replacing the .mxf extension with .mpg.   I think Ann Bens suggested this with an issue I was having with some mxf files...    I'm a great believer in workarounds... I know they're not always ideal, but the important thing is to get the job done...

[chimpster37]

Same issue here in 22.5.0 with C70 MXF files at 23.976. 

Everyone's suggestion to use a proxy workflow is great (I always do) but ironically I am now getting this error when TRYING to transcode proxies!? Always a new issue with every new version it seems... 

[MARAND MEDIA]

I haven't gotten the errors when making proxies yet ... interesting. It seems to be I get errors when the software is trying to read certain data and it can't, so it makes sense why during transcoding you may have this issue (though I haven't seen it yet). I'd probably suggest trying a couple different ways to create proxies (whether automatically on ingest, creating after importing, or directly within media encoder) and see if you get the same issues everytime.

I only recently started using the camera proxy workflow though and it's been great. If your recording process allows for it, I'd let the camera just create the proxies for you and then you save time and frustration in post multiple times over.

I just noticed there is an updated version too (22.6.2 PP & 22.6 ME), so maybe (though doubtfully) they fixed some of these issues there and you could at least try with the new version.

[benwinter]

I have the same issue with MXF files from the Sony FX6.

Adobe has known about the issue since April and still hasn't fixed it.

To be absolutely clear what is going on here: Following the 2022 update, Premiere is straight-up incompatible with one of the most popular video containers found natively in lots of professional production cameras, and Adobe seems unable or unwilling to undo what they did to break it.

I tried raising the issue but Kevin Monahan responded by trying to blame my hardware (I'm on a brand new 2019 Mac Pro, claiming Xeon processors can't handle H.264—which is completely irrelevant to these MXF files) and then locked the thread.

After more than a decade with Premiere, this was the final straw for me. I'm switching to Resolve and cancelling my CC subscription.

I'm editing my latest project in Resolve and it's an absolute joy. It's clearly 100x better optimized, the UI is snappier, instant playback, I don't need to render proxies. To all who are hesitant, the learning curve is friendly and adaptation from Premiere is easy. I can't believe this is what I was missing out on. Adobe has completely dropped the ball and it's time to leave. Enough waiting around for Adobe to stop polishing the turd. Ciao Adobe.

[MARAND MEDIA]

Yeah I totally agree with all of that. I've actually been in the process of switching to resolve (but I have a lot of current projects so it's a slow process).

I've had these issues using my C70 files with PP2020 and up, so definitely not just a 2022 issue. Definitely leaving premiere, but I use too many of their other apps so it looks like Adobe won't lose any money from me (which is why they can get away with offering PP with so many issues).

It's sad that the "fix" is to stop using it [and go to Resolve] but it's where we're at.

Any dog thinking about the switch, here's a realistic and encouraging view on it. https://youtu.be/LhONgaaLjHk

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hey ben,

claiming Xeon processors can't handle H.264

I probably said Xeon processors do not support Quick Sync; they don't. However, H.264 GPU acceleration should be supported by your Mac's GPU. I find it odd that most people experiencing this bug have the same 2019 Mac Pros.

—which is completely irrelevant to these MXF files)

.MXF is a container; the XAVC format uses H.264, so that's the connection I was making. 

and then locked the thread.

Not sure what happened there. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I'm advocating for a fix and hope the issue will be addressed soon.

Ciao Adobe.

Wishing you luck in your future projects.

Take Care,
Kevin

[benwinter]

Kevin, thanks for the response. I'm aghast that a bug that renders the software basically useless on a professional machine like the Mac Pro hasn't been addressed in half a year. Furthermore, there's not a single notice on Adobe's website alerting Mac users to this fact. The bug report webpage shows users from many different Mac products experiencing the same issue, both Intel and M1. A little outreach to the professionals trying to use this software would have been appreciated. Adobe has had months to investigate this issue, and it's not a small one. The MXF container is ubiquitous amongst professional camera systems.

I've cancelled my CC subscription and switched Resolve and am beyond happy, but I didn't want to make this switch. I literally had no choice because Premiere straight up doesn't work anymore. Still reeling from the amount of money I've dumped into Adobe over the years only to be treated like this.

[chimpster37]

Update: In an act of desparation I updated to the latest (22.6.2) on my M1 Mac Mini and prayed to the Adobe Gods that some of the 'important fixes' were to address this crippling issue with one of the top selling Canon cinema cameras of all time... I cleared all my cache files, started a fresh project, and used the incrediby useless and frustrating new "IMPORT" tab that nobody asked for to import the full SD cards (structure in tact.) Now I am getting about 3 red "Frame Substituion Recursion" messages per minute as it struggles to generate peak files for the clips. In other words, things seem to be getting EVEN MORE unstable, if that's even possible. I do appreciate the suggestions to jump ship but I'm knee deep in a 7-episode shoot of a 2x C70 project right now - I truly wish I had the mental bandwidth to just ~learn~ Resolve overnight, but I'm stuck in this disfuntional relationship wtih an abusive partner (Adobe) and just trying my best not to have a brain aneurysm over here. My next thought is to just use my old Intel laptop to just transcode every piece of footage into ProRes and let it chug for a few days... 

[benwinter]

The transcoding seems like the best option at this point. Re: getting to use Resolve, I had the same trepidation. It's actually much less to adjust to than you might be thinking. I transferred a project from Premiere to Resolve and was editing no problem within minutes. I felt comfortable like I knew the software enough to get around amost instantly. Highly recommend you give it a go.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Ben,

I'm still looking into the problem. It seems that the only computers having the issue are 2019 Mac Pros and now the M1s. I feel that both these computers do not have an iGPU so hardware decoding for H.264 is not as robust as it is with Intel CPUs. ProRes workflows are the route to go for these machines, in my opinion. 

Again, I'm not on the product team, and I don't fix bugs. I'm an experienced editor working in support and communicating with the team and letting them know about issues like this. Hope that helps.

Thanks,
Kevin

[MARAND MEDIA]

Though not nearly as prevelant, I've had the some errors on an intel Mac as well as a PC. But the fact that it's much more prevelant on my M1 Mac Mini might point to something for sure.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi MM,

Sorry. If you are speaking of the 10-bit 4:22 HEVC files at 4K, the computers able to handle that format are gen 10 Intel is or better. No others at this time that I am aware of. If you have a less powerful computer, I recommend transcoding.

Thanks,

Kevin

[MARAND MEDIA]

When you say "able to handle that" what do you mean? I haven't heard any specifics so far as to why the errors are even popping up, just some speculation and troubleshooting work-arounds. If you know the cause of the errors, that would go far to solving them for even powerful machines. 

I do transcode, but the problem with that is as soon as proxies are turned off (for grading or some other need) so many errors start coming in that it slows down any action till the error has actually popped up. 

But my point still stands, the errors happen on high end and low end machines alike.

[thom_c]

So I'm getting these errors on both a 2017 iMac Pro (10-core Xeon-W) and a 2021 Macbook Pro (M1 Max) ... FWIW, they happen much more frequently with heavy processing (e.g. Neat Video noise reduction plug-in) ... the (8-bit) MXF footage from our Canon C200 is now essentially unusable for me in Premiere without transcoding, and I'm finding I'm increasingly using Resolve to dig me out of holes created by Premiere (the 3D keyer in Resolve is phenomenal) 

[Tarek266360428a64]

22.6.2, issue is still not resolved, neither on older Intel based mac, nor on new Mac studio with M1. We keep getting this error, randomly. We use XDCAM HD 422 mxf, on sxs cards. The only workaround we found is to import through Media Encoder and encode files to Apple Prores.

[Michael Grenadier]

as I suggested in an earlier post in this thread, check the colorspace of the clips.  

I was having serious issues with mxf files recently with a variety of manifestations including the occasional "Frame Substitution Recursion" error and although this may have nothing to do with your issue, it's worth a shot...   from the project window, right click on a clip and choose modify: interpret footage.  At the bottom of the dialog, check to see what the color space is.  If it's NOT rec709, enable color space override and choos rec709.

You should be able to select multiple clips in your project and modify many clips at the same time...  

And another thing to try is to rename the files, replacing .mxf with .mpg.  

If you've tried this and it doesn't work, please post back here so at least we know it doesn't fix at least some of the problems...  

[Randune23]

I have a 2019 Dell 7820 Precision Workstation and I too have run into these same errors.

Randy

[Randune23]

This is SOOOO frustrating.  When you are working in a massive project and you get answers such as "delete all rendered files" or "delete all cache" and you do this and it does NOTHING to fix the bug.  I just wish Adobe did better is all.  This error reared its ugly head on the last of 18 sequences I have in a project.  It all comes down to iPhone LIVE photos.  I have imported the picture and the mov video file of the same picture and this is when the error started.  The crazy part is I had some of these same pictures/videos on another timeline and they worked flawlessly just a couple of days ago.

I'm following this post to see if someone in Adobe has the answer or not.  My #1 clue was there was not a "correct answer" post in the thread and the original post was almost a year ago.

Randy

[Martin5CBA]

I just talked to Adobe Support about the same issue. Only answer at this stage is to edit only on internal hard drives. My footage are all on external drives at this stage. I will test and revert back here. 

[scottwild]

Still does it on internal drives too. I've looked for a solution for over 8 months and there's really no way to solve it. 

[Michael Grenadier]

Scott, have you posted your system specs, etc?  This is a very lengthy thread and I don't have the time to dig in to this now so you might want to repost them.  Here's my boilerplate request

Please tell us your system specs: OS version, Premiere version, amount of RAM, Hardware specs including graphics card and your source properties and sequence settings...

Just to reiterate what I've posted previously in this thread (so you don't have to dig to find it).  I work on both pc and mac.  Never seen this on a mac...  Saw it occasionally on windows, but a restart always solved the problem until a few weeks ago when it happened constantly.  Updated to the latest version of premiere and haven't experienced it since...  You might also try installing the beta version of Premiere.    

I understand your frustration, but seems like the vast majority of users are not experiencing this.   Happy to help you troubleshoot this, but we'll need to approach this in s a systematic fashion...   

[scottwild]

Sorry, but I've tried for 8 months, dude.

The last time I tried, I was told by a community expert that "real professionals are proficient at other editing software" and that by only using Premiere, I was putting all my eggs in one basket. 

[Michael Grenadier]

well, that community expert was an idiot.  Gotta say I've been doing this for a long long time, starting with Avid after many years of editing film and linear video, moving to FCP1-7 and then to Premiere and Resolve and I've had issues on all of them.  I've always been able to figure out how to solve the problem or workaround the problem but often with the help of other users.     so, if you want to work with me to see if we can troubleshoot this problem, happy to help...     Could also do a zoom if you want...  Just send me a direct message by clicking on my user name at the top of my post to discuss this...  And as the idiot inferred, there are other solutions out there including the free version of Resolve but they all have plusses and minuses and none of them are simple to learn...  and if you've invested the time to become proficient in Premiere, it's probably worth working to solve this issue.

[scottwild]

I appreciate your willingness to help, but I've already done my time trying to solve this issue. 

For me, it's how premiere deals with the Long GOP file format. It just doesn't digest it well. I now avoid the format when I can on the Canon C70 and don't have any issues. For those who care, Resolve does not have any issues editing Long GOP footage.

[Michael Grenadier]

Thanks for posting your workaround.   I almost always work with prores proxies of long gop footage...  You can now use proxies for preliminary exports and wondering if using a smart rendering workflow to a prores format after locking picture would solve this issue.

https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro-discussions/faq-what-is-smart-rendering/td-p/10648488