high speed scrubbing (cs6)

[Keith_Clark]

where did the scrubbing dial go? is it gone? or hidden? i miss it =( i also don't like the fact the zoom in feature has changed. but not as annoying as the scrubbing. so is scrubbing axed? (i realize you can do it with the playhead, but i liked the dial better.)

[DavidNJ]

You are just indicating that the heavy users, or rather the heavy users who use other editing programs, want JLK. Premier Pro has a larger audience and it seems pretty clear that audience wasn't adequately consulted.

As far as your wife, try four neighbors and teach two jog/shuttle and two KLJ first, let them use it that way for an hour or so; then teach them the other. My guess your 4 new users will be 3-to-1 in favor of mouse controlled jog/shuttle.

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

DavidNJ wrote:

You are just indicating that the heavy users, or rather the heavy users who use other editing programs, want JLK. Premier Pro has a larger audience and it seems pretty clear that audience wasn't adequately consulted.

As far as your wife, try four neighbors and teach two jog/shuttle and two KLJ first, let them use it that way for an hour or so; then teach them the other. My guess your 4 new users will be 3-to-1 in favor of mouse controlled jog/shuttle.

Honestly, I don't know what to say. Adobe has to satisfy 2 basic groups with Premiere Pro....existing users and potential users. Within those groups are folks from all manner of backgrounds and experience level, but if you want a random statistic, I'd say 90% of the users for PPro (not counting any pirates) are using PPro regularly for professional video work. The other 10% are folks who aren't worried about the cost of PPro, either because perhaps they are using the Creative Suite primarily for design or motion graphics and somebody else paid for it as part of the package or maybe they're a hobbyist of some kind for whom money isn't really a concern. And even many hobbyists would be satisfied with any number of much cheaper editing tools on the market (including Premiere Elements, or iMovie....or even FCPX for that matter). So your 10% person - a hobbyist, or unexperienced editor, or rare/occasional editor - is not in the crosshairs of Adobe development because they aren't generally in need of all the power that PPro has to offer. They are not the majority for either existing users or potential users.

So did Adobe capture a lot of opinions from people who aren't "power users" of Premiere Pro, FCP, Media Composer, etc...? Who knows...but probably not. It should be clear that Adobe cannot satisfy 100% of the users 100% of the time, and as with every company who ever developed a product for sale, you have to decide WHO your target is, WHAT they need, and how much leeway you have to satisfy the more fringe needs out there in an attempt to grab a handful of additional users outside of your target group.

As for your suggestion that I increase the sample size of my impromptu research project on Premiere Pro, it's a nice suggestion but certainly has very near to 0% chance of happening. But while we're all speculating, I might as well suggest that the group would split down the middle. The 2 that I trained to use jog/shuttle with the mouse would probably prefer it, and the 2 trained on J/K/L would prefer that. That is, of course, how they learned it.

See, however, that Adobe actually did this test with more than 4 people (none of them being my neighbors or my wife I suppose) and they came away with enough of a deciding factor to go ahead and throw the jog/shuttle controls into the abyss. I imagine it must have been very decisive for them to actually do that, something so drastic as completely removing it. Most publicly-held companies are very conservative when it comes to making those kinds of decisions.

[DavidNJ]

This wasn't a new feature, this was a feature there since the inception of the product that was removed with no benefit for its removal; both the button area where it resided and individual controls in that area are configurable.  No one who didn't want it needed to have it.

It wasn't a hidden feature, it was at the center of the button area and the largest control there.

My guess is the overwhelming majority of Premier users are occasional (the product is sold in suites with other high use products) and most don't have the key strokes memorized. For example, what keystroke does the scrolling your second post?

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi DavidNJ,

We know that removing the jog/shuttle controls would upset some existing users, and for that, I apologize.

What we wanted to do was to reduce the amount of buttons and interface items on the Source and Record Monitors in the new release of Premiere Pro. Before CS6, there were a couple of dozen buttons that were drawn, taking up a good hunk of the interface, and less space for HD media.

Just as Photoshop is for pro photographers, Premiere Pro is built for professional video editors. The editors out there in the working world are put off by interfaces that are not customizable (and by and large, favor JKL control). Before I came to Adobe, I was also put off by the interface (again, too many buttons, zero customizability). Now, I just love it. However, I come from a pro background and never used the jog/shuttle controls either.

As a side note, I learned linear editng using only the keyboard, as the CMX gizmo on that system was toast. Later, I was trained in Hollywood on Avid systems and told to never use the jog/shuttle controls and to refine my touch with JKL. As a FCP instructor for years, I trained my students the same way.

As Christian points out, the best thing you can do is file a feature request for jog/shuttle controls to be available as a customizable feature: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

I think a blog about controlling scrubbing with JKL just made my to-do list.

[WesHaley]

What is so frustraiting about the whole thing is that you made the interace customizable, so you could have easily just left them in and let us add them back in if you wanted to. So in the end, there was absolutely no reason to remove them from the product, from a user point of view.

Since I got the product, I've been trying to learn JKL more, but there are times when it just doesn't do the job, for the way I work.  I got a shuttle pro to help me, but it just isn't always as responsive, since it's basically just mimicking JKL as far as I can tell. 

I've put my feature request in, but from what I can tell, Adobe thinks this is the better way, and since users are apparently a minority, I have no hope of it being changed.

[Kevin-Monahan]

WesHaley wrote:

What is so frustraiting about the whole thing is that you made the interace customizable, so you could have easily just left them in and let us add them back in if you wanted to.

Perhaps there was no easy way to customize a jog wheel and shuttle controls? Software programming and engineering is never "easy." It's much more complex that you might think it is. Adding more code can break things in other places. Or perhaps there wasn't enough time to add them back in as customizable buttons?

Again, a feature request might get these controls back in as a customizable feature. You do have to file it, though.

[Corvalent]

Just purchased a Shuttle Express to bring back that functionality.

Nope.  It works by rapidly hitting the arrow keys at different frequencies (default behavior).  Not the same at all.  If you modify the keystroke tool, to use the JKL keys, you can kind of get the same effect, but it's hit or miss because many of the generated keystrokes are missed.

In otherwords, I just wasted $ hoping to replace an unnecissarally removed feature.  I'll file a request... but I'm afraid the feature is probably  lost to us.

-Jason

[Photonics_Video_Guy]

Jason, I think you wanted a ShuttlePRO which does have shuttle and jog wheels and mimics the behavior of the jog and shuttle controls.  I haven't tried a Shuttle Express which is the less expensive product, right?  The shuttlePRO's jog wheel is essentially mimicing arrow hits, but the outside shuttle wheel is a vari speed controller which I think is what you're looking for?  Maybe you can trade it in for the better model?

[Corvalent]

Same functionality either way.  This one only has 4 buttons, but has the spring loaded wheel, and the inner steping wheel.  I was hoping for the same responsive control I formally received from using the mouse, complete with the slowmotion audio.  This was not to be the case.  We went from the nice analog sounding slow audio (with mouse control), to a rapid stutter like a bad cellphone connection (using the shuttle) this is because it's hitting the arrow key at something like 45 times per second.

The device offers the ability to issue keystrokes, based on the transition across the springloaded wheel's range of motion... so I was able to set it up so as the wheel turned, it issued 3 "shift+j" keystrokes" or 3 "shift+L" keystrokes, (depending on direction) for each of the 7 'stops' in the range of motion.  I made arriving at the center stop (no twisting) issue a "k" keystroke, to be sure to stop it in case it get's out of sync. This produces the correct effect, speeding up and slowing down the video as the outer wheel rotates... but, the keystrokes are sometimes missed, with the video continuing to play for a moment, or jumping just a bit after rotating the wheel.  So it's not a great replacement solution for me.

I was told by contour that new drivers are coming out shortly to address this issue... but considering how long that line of products have been on the market, and they still havn't fixed it... I'm not holding my breath.

While we're at it, let's remove the magic wand from photoshop.  "Real Pro's" who work in Photoshop rarely use it, favoring other more accurate tools... and it clutters up the interface.  We could knock out 20+ panels, and a load of tools by combining Illustrator and InDesign.  We'll call it ildesign, or InDustrator.  InDesign duplicates so much of the functionality of Illustrator (tools, etc.) that might actually be a practical idea.

-Jason

[Corvalent]

I'm sure I'll get used to the new work flow as well.  I'm just highly annoyed by it.  I frequently scrub over the video with the mouse, and liked the ability to use those controls to slide the mouse and achieve the exact position I wanted, vs. madly pushing buttons while holding down keyboard modifiers. 

I think it would have been a lot easier for someone to convice them to leave the controls in, or allow them to be hidden, as that decision was being made.  But now it will probably require more "squeeking" that our little band of disgruntled users can make, to motivate them to reopen the issue, and spend the development time to put the controls back in (undoing work), and making them able to be hidden.

I've pretty much gone through the 5 stages of grief, during this process and have arrived at reluctant acceptance with some lingering sadness.

-J 

[Kevin-Monahan]

Jason-W wrote:

...achieve the exact position I wanted, vs. madly pushing buttons while holding down keyboard modifiers.

Not sure what you mean. JKL shuttle control operates without modifiers.

But now it will probably require more "squeeking" that our little band of disgruntled users can make,

The only leverage you have is a feature request. Sorry, a bunch of posts on the forum are not seen by the people that make those kind of decisions. They look at feature requests and data from the Product Improvement Program.

to motivate them to reopen the issue, and spend the development time to put the controls back in (undoing work), and making them able to be hidden.

The motivation is numbers. The number of feature requests, and the number of uses in the Product Improvment Program.

I've pretty much gone through the 5 stages of grief, during this process and have arrived at reluctant acceptance with some lingering sadness.

In time, the feeling will pass. We all go through it.

[DavidNJ]

Kevin,

CS6 created an option to hide the buttons, which was made the default, and to customize the buttons. So the claim that it saved screen space is false, the users who didn't want it didn't have to have it and wouldn't have it as the default. Those who did want it were screwed.

"Premiere Pro is built for professional video editors", and your point is? Premier Pro is used by lots of people who use it professionally as PART of their work. If you only sold to people who used it for over 50% of their work my guess is Premier Pro  would have a very small market. For example, an event videographer. Or a documentary or other cinematographer who acts as producer/director/writer/editor and in some cases camera/audio operator. We know JKL, we don't like it;

it is far easier to move around with a mouse that remember 40 keystroke combinations, so of which require cycling through multiple windows and items. For example, moving between multiple tracks with multiple clips of video and audio, the program window, the project files, the trim window, the source window, right mouse click menus and subsequent dialogs (such as the frame rate window). Then moving to other parts of the app such as Audition and Media Encoder, in addition to Photoshop and Illustrator. Or Dreamweaver or Flash.

Keystrokes are not an option. Video editing is just one part of running a business. Taking away an important feature for NO BENEFIT TO ANYONE since it was already optional in the new interface was a bad decision.

David

[Jim_Simon]

Video editing is just one part of running a business.

Which I would ague should be handled by a professional video editor.  There's lots of us out there who need the work.

[JFPhoton]

....PPro is already a daunting program to learn from the ground up for a new user.....as is After Effects,Photoshop, and many others. New users should have the option of using the mouse based controls until they would be ready to switch to keyboard commands. I believe new users will constitute an increasingly larger share of Adobe customers and they should not be ignored ....yes, the keyboard controls are great for the veteran, pro user,but, does Adobe want to frustrate new customers even further?? These newbies are constantly struggling to understand the substantial and expensive hardware requirements just to get started....and then have to learn of  " scrubbing problems with AVCHD in 5.5",or, "dissolves not working right" and other peccadillos along the way,( after laying out serious cash).

As we are in the midst of an ever - accelerating media revolution where this video world will keep expanding with thousands of newcomers participating, Adobe would be wise not to create a program that is too difficult to get started on,but, does have all the advanced,cutting edge features that pros need.....allow a "hidden" jog/shuttle to return for those who like it....why anger any of your loyal customers??

[Kevin-Monahan]

JFPhoton wrote:

New users should have the option of using the mouse based controls until they would be ready to switch to keyboard commands.

We have tons of mouse based control. The only things we removed was jog/shuttle, which not many people used.

JFPhoton wrote:

llow a "hidden" jog/shuttle to return for those who like it....why anger any of your loyal customers??

Many things are possible with software coding. That's why I ask you to make a feature request for its return as customizable buttons: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

[Keith_Clark]

Gee, I'm sorry my thread opened up such a huge can of worms. My main goal of posting the thread was just to find out how to fast forward, don't care how. I never even used jkl, and I've used PrPro for 3 years now. I wouldn't. All myself pro yet, but that is my life intention.

This weekend I did my first "legit" project in CS6, and used the crap out of JKL, and have to report, it works the same to me as jog/shuttle. For those complaining, I suggest give it whirl. I don't miss the GUI option, the functionality is still there, regardless. editing was a breeze, and now that I know the functionality is there, I won't miss the previous workflow I used.

Works for me.

Sent from my iPhone

[Kevin-Monahan]

Andy Ramone wrote:

This weekend I did my first "legit" project in CS6, and used the crap out of JKL, and have to report, it works the same to me as jog/shuttle. For those complaining, I suggest give it whirl. I don't miss the GUI option, the functionality is still there, regardless. editing was a breeze, and now that I know the functionality is there, I won't miss the previous workflow I used.

Works for me.

Sent from my iPhone

Sweet! Thanks for the scene report!

[mhdiver]

How do you know not many people used jog/shuttle?  Communiucation with a select group of pro users?  An open survey would have been a good idea.  For the record, I've been using Adobe Premiere Pro since it was first released and I use jog/shuttle always.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy TabKevin Monahan <forums@adobe.com> wrote:Re: high speed scrubbing (cs6)

created by Kevin Monahan in Premiere Pro CS5, CS5.5, & CS6 - View the full discussion

[Kevin-Monahan]

mhdiver wrote:

How do you know not many people used jog/shuttle?  Communiucation with a select group of pro users?  An open survey would have been a good idea.  For the record, I've been using Adobe Premiere Pro since it was first released and I use jog/shuttle always.

We know who used the feature (and who didn't) with our Product Improvement Program. Therefore, the sample was not a select group of uber-high end video editors, it was from thousands of editors like you. In essence, it is an open survey. Anyone can take part in the Product Improvment Program, and if you want to advocate for certain features you use all the time, then by all means, opt in! To opt in, do the following:

Choose Help > Adobe Product Improvement Program.

For details, see this post from the After Effects Product Manager, Steve Forde.

[mhdiver]

Now that I'm aware of it, you'll hear my voice.

[DavidNJ]

I had quite a few conversations at the road show today.

First, and huge (at least to me) is that Speedgrade does a McBeth color card adjustment to video. This is a new Adobe feature (previously only on photos) and provides a new dimension for color accuracy.

Second, I was told by the senior person there that jog and shuttle will return, although possibly a little different. I indicated that it would be fine if they were implemented as hover controls, and suggested left click for shuttle and left click + right click held together for jog. Control+left click was suggested but, as I indicated, that required using the keyboard when you wanted to only use the mouse/tablet/track ball. The other wouldn't have been that huge an issue for me since I use a high resolution mouse with extra buttons that could be mapped to control, alt, or shift. But for all users they wanted to lowest common denominator.

Important is that everyone who reads this thread and wants this feature should submit it as a resquest and ask every Adobe user they know to request it. Numbers count. The funny part, the number counts are apparently fairly small.

Which gets back to the user research that let to his. It was faulty, always biased toward users who had an active involvement with Adobe. For people getting new licenses, whose license is two or more releases out of date, or who have one of the smaller collections and want the Master Collection, the Creative Cloud is an attractive option. Since Premier is part of the Creative Cloud, it is going to be used by increasing numbers of less sophisticated users who need the mouse not the keyboard. One further observation, jog and shuttle are the only keyboard functions that don't have a mouse command. You can move around the screen, step forward and back, change tools, etc. with the mouse. But you can't jog and shuttle.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi David,

Glad you enjoyed the road show, and that you got some answers that you wanted to hear.
Way to rally the troops for your feature request too.

DavidNJ wrote:

Which gets back to the user research that let to his. It was faulty, always biased toward users who had an active involvement with Adobe.

Our methods are not biased at all. We have the Adobe Product Improvement Program that I mentioned in an earlier post. It's not for "users who are active with Adobe" or anyone special. The program is open to anyone that chooses to. It's made up of thousands of editors. Many are just like you. You can opt in yourself by just going to the Help Menu.

Thanks.

[DavidNJ]

Kevin, if you are in the Silicon Valley area Stanford has many marketing research courses; options include MKTG 365: Marketing Analytics, MKTG 641: Behavioral Research in Marketing I, and MKTG 642: Behavioral Research in Marketing II: Consumer Behavior.

'

Your description is of a flawed marketing research strategy. It is equivalent to a politician using the wishes of those who show up at a fund raiser as representative of the overall electorate.   The answer was it was coming back.

The issue is getting it back quickly.  Now we need to focus on the broken help system in addition to keeping jog and shuttle front and center until the functionality is returned..

[Kevin-Monahan]

DavidNJ wrote:

Kevin, if you are in the Silicon Valley area Stanford has many marketing research courses; options include MKTG 365: Marketing Analytics, MKTG 641: Behavioral Research in Marketing I, and MKTG 642: Behavioral Research in Marketing II: Consumer Behavior.

'

Your description is of a flawed marketing research strategy. It is equivalent to a politician using the wishes of those who show up at a fund raiser as representative of the overall electorate.   The answer was it was coming back.

The issue is getting it back quickly.  Now we need to focus on the broken help system in addition to keeping jog and shuttle front and center until the functionality is returned..

David,

I am from the Silicon Valley. I grew up down the street from 1 Infinite Loop. I went to San Jose State, so I don't believe anything out of Stanford!

We have: the product improvement program, feature requests, and a beta test program. That is how we listen to our users. We do not bias or influence our users in any way. All we do is listen.

I did tell you that we have a product improvement program. You can join. Please add your voice.

As far as help being "broken" (besides the PDF, which is coming soon), I can help you with that. I write the Help. However, please start a new thread for your specific issue.

Thanks.

[Steven_Pribilinskiy]

This problem about the jog/shuttle control is soooo rediculous.

It is sooo stupid to remove an application feature. Why remove features many people get used to? (4400 views of this discussion)

There's a lot of Menu options in Main Menu and Context Menus and Panel Context Menus. Let's say I will never use the Fields submenu, and it takes two Menu items, a Separator and the Fields submenu. I will not send a Feature Request to remove it, because I know that some editor may need it.

I never used the jog/shuttle, but I would not be irritated by a Menu Item Checkbox in Monitor's Context Menu called "Show Jog and Shuttle Controls"

Furthermore, if I would be the Designer of context menus, I would add in top of the menu a command View Options... like in AE Composition panel and put there all the rarely used checkboxes. After Effects UI is not cluttered, this means AE UI Designers are way more advanced, experienced. Adobe, give me a Job.

The JKL/Shift+JKL could be a bit enhanced

A settings could be added in Preferences Playback section.

Let go of K again: regular playback speed resumes

Why it resumes at regular speed 1x and not on the current speed? This should be an option.