How to transcode Canon 5D mark II H.264 video into something editable?

[fabriziorizzo]

QT Pro v7.5 plays my 5Dm2 native video files just fine. Premiere CS4 however... unusable. I've heard that transcoding the H.264 40Mbps videos to another format allows a better editing experience.

Hardware:
Dell Precision 690, 1 quad-core 3GHz processor, 12GB RAM, 15000 rpm SAS system drive, 1TB SATA video disk (non-RAID), 1TB SATA temp disk (non-RAID), Quadro FX 3500 graphics card (non-CUDA unfortunately)

Question is... what is the most efficient format to transcode into?

A tutorial on Vimeo for Final Cut Pro on a mac mentions HDCAM EX as a format to use. (http://www.vimeo.com/2373679)
I don't see that option as shown on the Mac from my Vista box using either Adobe Media Encoder CS4 or MPEG Streamclip v1.2.

If I start a project in Premiere CS4 using the HDCAM EX 1080p presets, what is the corresponding Media Encoder format to choose for converting my clips before importing to Premiere?

I'm currently testing the following output format in AME:
MPEG2 Blu-Ray: 1920x1080,23.976 fps, Progressive, Quality 5, no audio, VBR 2-pass, bitrate setings of 25 min 35 target 40 max.

Has anyone determined a transcoding process that provides full HD quality while maintaining any ability to scrub and edit Canon 5D mark II video in Premiere CS4?

[the_wine_snob]

- I have no clue why PremierePro can't handle any Quicktime, could be that you have to install some additional plug-ins from MainConcept.

Angleo,

This is not quite the case. I'm working on a Project with over 100 .MOV files w/ the Animation CODEC, right from FCP. Not one problem on my PrPro PC. I have QT Pro 7.5.5.

Now, I have not tried to handle any H.264's, but have not had a reason to do so.

Just wanted to clear things up a bit.

Hunt

[Guest]

I don't know what others are experiencing, but I just imported an mov file from my new 5D Mark II, dragged it to the timeline (where I got a yellow bar above it, clicked on Sequence\Render entire work area, and once the bar was green, the timeline played perfectly.

I used an AVCHD preset of 1080p, 30fps for the sequence.

The metadata for the clip shows Movie, 1920 x 1080(1.0), Alpha, 30.000 fps and 44100 Hz - 16-bit - Stereo.

The sequence shows 29.97 fps, 1920 x 1080(1.0) 48000 Hz - Stereo.

I didn't transcode, convert or in any way modify the original file. it is just as it came from the camera.

8-GB DDR3 RAM, Core duo Quad Q9550, DX48BT2 MoBo, 1 TB eSATA RAID 10, 100GB scratch disk, nVidia GTX260XXX, WIN XP Pro 64-bit, dual 21-in Viewsonics on DVI.

[PaulieDC]

1 TB eSATA RAID 10, 100GB scratch disk

Good setup, that has a big part in it.

I don't have RAID yet (just an eSata LaCie external for a media drive), but I convert my 5D2 files to AVIs with NeoScene, and that helps tremendously. If I pile on some effects it gets a bit choppy, so I'm hoping the future RAID setup will help there. I may use my eSata drive just for scratch at that point (experimenting...).

[Jeff Bellune]

I apologize if I missed it earlier in this thread, but does anyone have any links to sample 5D MK II footage?

-Jeff

[PaulieDC]

Jeff, on this page, scroll down to the comments, and the third comment has three links for original .MOV files that Vincent Laforet shot when he did his original Reverie short (that shot the 5D2 to stardom):

http://www.slashgear.com/canon-5d-mark-iis-raw-video-footages-from-reverie-one-word-stunning-2717551...

You can also right-click on the images on this page to download some original footage (just scroll down):

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5dmarkii/page19.asp

It's easy to find 5D2 video on the web already processed... getting raw .mov files is a bit harder. I can fill up a DVD and send it to you if you like. I can send some outdoor footage and some interior low-light clips as well... you can see how it gives the Red a run for its money in low-light. Shooting at f1.4 is wild too... one-inch depth of field for video! BTW, all 5D2 footage prior to June 1st (roughly) is shot on autmatic exposure, so pumping occurs in luminance changes. Then Canon released the manual exposure firmware so we could actually CONTROL the exposure and aperture (how 'bout that), but raw footage on the web after manual exposure was released is pretty rare I think.

OK, just yappin, back to work I go. Let me know if you'd like a DVD, I'd be happy (just takes burning a disc and mailing it, easy stuff). If not, you can at least get some idea of the file format with the download links above. I'd like to hear your take on it.

Paul

[Jeff Bellune]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the links.  That should be enough to get me started.  If I run into any issues and none of the 6 clips can break the tie, then I may ask again.  I appreciate the offer of a DVD full of clips, but I'm set for now.  Thanks.

-Jeff

[Bob_Ramage]

Transcoding to EX1-style MPEG2 is the best solution out of the box. Final Cut users are doing the same thing with clips from the 5d MkII.

[_malcolm_scott_]

Getting very frustrated with this - after a host of different tests with various codecs I can't get the result to play smoothly - its ok on static shots (camera locked but with movement within the frame) but any pan or tilt introduces slight (or not so slight) jerks (and this has nothing to do with the camera operator as the files play back smoothly when played from the camera through an HDMI cable to a monitor.

The other issue is the colour. This seems to be a bit of an elephant in the room around here, but as I understand it there is a problem with the H264 codec as quicktime and software that uses the quicktime codec (like CS4 and Vegas, but not FCP) reverts to sRGB which does not use the complete 8-bit colour range (0-255). The QT decoder only uses 16-235. You can see this easily if you take a MOV file shot on the 5D and change the file extension to (say) MPG - play it along side the original file playing in the quick time player - the colour difference is startling - as are the blacks/shadows. Unfortunately while players such as Media Player are completely taken in by this (the change in file extension) - Premiere isn't and won't allow the import of the "corrupted" file (damn!)

So as I understand things, to get around that issue we cannot (at the moment) use any Adobe product to compress/change the format of the original file without unacceptable loss of picture quality. We would need a third party solution to do this (one that did not revert to using the faulty QT codec)... then import the result into CS4 ... then try to edit and export a smoothly playing, high quality result (that the Mac equipped, are showing the camera is capable of producing!)

Either that or we wait for Apple, Adobe or Canon to provide a workable solution ...

Anyone got a cheap Mac they aren't using? (he says through gritted teeth! - I gave them up about 10 years ago)

[the_wine_snob]

Malcom,

I just received 5 .MOV's from a Canon 5D MKII. As I only have PP2 to work with, I Imported these into an HD 16:9 Project. UnRendered, they were a tad choppy, but after Render, they played very smoothly. There did not appear to be any Audio sync issues (mentioned in some other 5D threads), but then I didn't have a slate, or any closeups of speech, so maybe I missed something there.

Judging from some other threads, I expected there to be problems, but found none. The Render time (Core2 Quad 2.6GHz w/ 3x 200GB SATA II's) was longer than for equal SD footage, but not that bad. I'd estimate that it was about 1:2 taking 5mins. to Render a 2:04:00 Clip).

I only had hummingbirds with natural background, and the lighting was early AM, so fairly harsh, but colors looked "decent" on the laptop's 17" monitor - no NTSC calibrated monitor here.

I know that this does not address many of the issues, that you are finding, and is not a complete test, by any means. Just wanted to throw out a few limited observations.

Hunt

[charleshull]

Malcom,

The issue of proper color has been solved by Apple with the release of QuickTime 7.6.

Note that FCP had the same issue.

Bill, I agree that rendering the MOV clips works. I still tend to transcode to mpeg-2 and like this better. Right or wrong I feel I can do more precise color work with transcoding than with rendering.

[the_wine_snob]

Charles,

One major correction that I need to make to my above comments, re: Render times is that I had tested in an SD Project (just happened to have it handy). I created a full HD Project and then the Render times went up fairly dramatically, but still within reason. I had not even considered that difference, when I first posted - DUH!

As for QT, I still have 7.5.5 installed. Had been about ready to go with 7.6, then saw that some Premiere users were having problems with it. I'll wait to see how that one sorts out. I still recall the 7.4.x problems from not that long ago.

I have not gotten to them point of Exporting anything from the Canon. Do not have Blu-ray, so I would be Exporting to an SD delivery format.

I was just happy to get some of these files to experiment with, as others seem to be having problems and I had no test footage to explore. Now, I just need to get some of the MJPEG files from the Nikon D-90.

Thanks for the comments. I also just recommended FCP to the photographer shooting the Canon, especially as he's on Mac for everything.

Sorry about the bogus Render times,

Hunt

[BrantG]

Any of you try this guy's method?

http://www.vimeo.com/2641870

I have and it seems to work just fine for me.

[charleshull]

BrantG,

Yes, I've tried the method - it works fine. But I've found just rendering the clips is much easier. Usually CS4 doesn't want to render these MOV clips but if you add one transition this is enough to make it want to render everything, and then you are all set.

[Bob_Dix_Photographer-E0Nmzu]

Yes, well you are right, Premiere Pro 1.5.1  will run smoothly after rendering but, it is slow and needs a quad computer. Pity about CS4 it has the same problem and Adobe Melbourne tech says patch on the way ????????????????????????????????

This 1.5.1 even after five years old will produce very good high definition video on a Sony Bravia 46" but, the rendering is slow.

There is a minor issue with this camera running at 30fps for smooth running on the timeline but, can be reduced by reducing clip speed by 84% 

[geohsia]

I hope they release a patch soon.

George

[Bob_Dix_Photographer-E0Nmzu]

Yes, otherwise you need a bigger computer or plenty of time.

[geohsia]

Unfortunately I do most my work on the road on a laptop so don't have a lot of time nor can I get a bigger computer.  My laptop already runs 8 GB of RAM with Vista 64 and has two internal HDD's and one is solid state.

[Scotty_thomas]

Has anyone talked about GPU assisted transcoding on this thread? I've been looking into Cuda supported apps and see that TMPGEnc 4.0 Xpress will use most of the current graphic cards to really push things along in the transcoding side of things. Also why does CS4 only support cuda acceleration on the quadro CX card? A cheaper games card has everything that is needed for help us all with these h.264 files, why won't Adobe make this tech more easily available so that people don't have to migrate over to Final Cut pro? I know I'm considering it..

[Andy Urtu]

Cineform has an fairly new product called NeoScene.  It is only $125.  It does a GREAT job with Canon 5D footage.

There is also a blog about the 5D and Cineform by the head tech guy at Cineform.

http://cineform.blogspot.com/

[Joe_Chott]

As it turns out, Cineform Neo Scene doesn't actually work.  It makes things worse.

If you already have choppy video when you import 5D Mk II .mov files, expect them to be two to three times worse when using Cineform Neo Scene.

-Joe Chott

[Guest]

Joe Chott wrote:

As it turns out, Cineform Neo Scene doesn't actually work.  It makes things worse.

If you already have choppy video when you import 5D Mk II .mov files, expect them to be two to three times worse when using Cineform Neo Scene.

-Joe Chott

Try this: import the cineform files into Premiere, save the project, quite Premiere, reopen the project.  Worked for me.  Although when I uninstalled Neo Scene after my trial ended, it messed up my computer in some way I've yet to figure out, possibly a gamma flag or codec thing.  Do NOT uninstall the trial using their uninstaller!!!

[Joe_Chott]

Right now, when I run video through Cineform Neo Scene, it just crashes Premiere the moment I import it.  Every time.

After the crash, oddly, I can still save the project, but if I then load Premiere again and try to load that project, instant crash.

So ANYTHING I do with files exported from CineForm Neo Scene causes Premiere to crash.

I honestly don't see how the heck CineForm thought Neo Scene was remotely ready to alpha test, let alone beta test or charge money for...

-Joe Chott

[Catmandog]

Hi Guys.

I found somewhat of a solution to getting smooth video working with un re-transcoded 5d2 videos, so you don't have to transcode them at all and original file size and quality will be maintained.

What you do have to do is convert them from a .mov container into an .mp4 container, but you dont re-encode them or change codecs. You do have to process the video independently from the audio to get the converter program to successfully complete the task.

Download "Super" file converter (freeware) http://www.erightsoft.com/S6Kg1.html

- Drag and drop original 5d video onto Super

- Select MP4 as container type

- Select Direct Stream Copy for the video option (no re-encoding)

- Select Disable Audio for the audio option

- Pick your output folder by right clicking anywhere on super's interface

then hit Encode. (process is quite fast of course)

Now you'll need to do the audio on it's own.

- Select WAV as your ouput container (if you want wav?)

then manually sync up the wav file with the mp4 file in premiere

Has been working great for me. It is a mystery as to why premiere is ok with Canon's H264 codec in a .mp4 container, but not in a .mov or .avi container.

Note - During the container change you will lose the  pixel aspect flag that tells premiere how to display the vid, so you'll have to manually interpret the vid as square pixels (right click in bin on the vid clip and select interpret)

Premiere reports the resolution as 1920 x 1088, but upon further investigation it is infact still 1080

Good luck

Cheers

HC

[Joe_Chott]

I tried SUPER out as well, using the exact steps as provided.  No dice there either.

I am EXTREMELY frustrated with Premiere.  I've never really used it before, but was assured by Adobe Sales prior to purchasing it that it fully supported the 5D Mk II's output format.  I can't do ANYTHING with it in Premiere.  Considering what Premiere cost, I would have expected some functionality of some kind, but no dice.

Loading my video into a freeware app called VLC runs absolute circles around Premiere, which cannot even play the files without dropping five to ten frames for every frame played.

-Joe Chott

[Catmandog]

Yeah, Premiere is very disappointing in the way it handles (or doesn't handle) some files. Have you noticed that when attempting to play the original 5d2 files, premiere is hardly even using 30% of the total cpu usage but it's still choppy, and scrubbing through the timeline is almost buttery smooth? So it doesn't appear to be a cpu horsepower related issue, but rather the way premiere/quicktime interract with eachother.