Losing Color in Exports

Report · Jun 17, 2016

Hey,

I'm having a problem whenever I export a video I'm noticing a severe desaturation of color when exporting. I've found people having the same issue, but no answers on what to do.

Any suggestions?

Report · Jun 06, 2017

Personally, I've never had an upload issue with either YouTube or Vimeo. I've just used the standard settings within PrPro's export systems. I know a number of others personally and "around here" that upload without issue. And there are scads of people uploading to both YouTube & Vimeo channels every day without issue ... look at channels like Rocket Jump and so many others ... Rocket Jump's main person has done numerous presentations including at NAB on how they edit within PrPro for their rapid-fire work. And the speed with which they plan, prep, shoot, and finish/post is amazing.

I have my monitors calibrated with an I-one puck & software to Rec709, and have tested my outputs on various pro-level systems, and they've been quite appropriate and very tight to how I would expect them to appear. So for my purposes, this output pipeline is functioning as expected and desired. I don't do any broadcast deliveries, and if I did, my calibration routine would be a lot higher.

I know that on my computer, VLC and PotPlayer will give me a nearly identical version of the media from what I get within PrPro ... and that QuickTime, after setting my Nvidia card settings for full dynamic range for video and to over-ride the video player when possible ... won't be too far off. Before I changed the card settings, it was the desaturated mush look.

None of this helps someone who's getting hammered with this problem. I am very aware of that, as naturally I've been on the "hammered" side on a number of issues over the years.

A few people have posted here that on their travels around the globe, uploading in different places to YouTube can get very different results. That leads me to believe YouTube's system isn't one for the planet, but has regional differences. I do not have confirmed data for this, but enough comments from various people to think the probability is high.

And in many ways, that variability should be expected. In much of Asia, "white" point is set at something higher than in the US, as standards can vary by region and even country.

So ... I don't know the exact details of your system, how well your monitor is calibrated, and the upload system from your area to YouTube. With more info, some of the regulars around here might have further ideas, and maybe we can get you past this.

Neil

Report · Jun 07, 2017

I resolved, if youtube is receiving the file that is fine in vlc & premiere but bad in QT, it should look like the VLC version when playing back from youtube after QT being designated the issue..

watching all platforms are on the same monitor with the same calibration. The youtube should not be bothered by the quicktime issue (im guessing) and should look more like the vlc file. But it looks more like the QT file and theres nothing i can do with tools to change it.

Spec - latest imac, latest adobe everything (all updated), graded in magic bullet / colorista, nothing out of factory spec other than the ram upgrade.

Report · Jun 07, 2017

I'm hoping that someone with some Mac experience might have an idea here. This is the sort of issue that gets so frustrating ... you'd think there'd be some settings SOMEWHERE to work this sort of issue.

I do know that dummergold has a LUT that can be applied on export and helps some with this ... maybe he'll pop in and assist.

Neil

Report · Jun 07, 2017

I've just learned there is a possible gamma issue with the iMac Retina 5k 27 inch with the AMD Radeon M395X card.

Maybe this is the same thing? Perhaps Kevin-Monahan or RameezKhan could chime in if they know anything more.

Neil

Report · Jun 08, 2017

tried h265 export same results. All preferred destinations, no good - vlc sweet. (qt is h264 - no codec for 265)

Report · Jun 08, 2017

Last test - I took the h264 file to a MACBOOK RETINA and did the 3 up display. The results on this device are all simlar - Youtube, QT & VLC.

Report · Jun 08, 2017

For a last test which i think shows up the issue.

i took the shots from the macbook and then opened the same file on the imac. Then placed the videos beside it.

The results show a consistent look from all of the mackbook tests (qt,vlc,yt) , the same results from the imac qt. but totally different from the imac vlc and premiere, this points to premiere and vlc being the culprits on the imac. It looks far darker than it really is, so I am grading wrong. As far as I can determine.

Report · Jun 09, 2017

It looks far darker than it really is, so I am grading wrong. As far as I can determine.

I think you may be viewing it wrong.

You really should be using only a calibrated TV and watching from a hardware device. One you add software, operating systems and GPU drivers into the mix, you've got too many variables.

That's why Mercury Transmit and dedicated I/O devices exist. They take the software, OS and GPU driver out of the signal chain, thus ensuring accurate signal viewing.

Report · Jun 09, 2017

I took your advice and calibrated my screen to match a pc, white paper, and macbook. my screen looked far more saturated than all the others. Now, with the apple RGB 1998 profile, the screen is where it should (out of interest, its far less saturated)

So i re-opened premiere expecting to find my new desaturated grade. still looks like before. Watch the above video and you can see how changing profiles, even to completely ridiculous ones changes nothing in premiere, Hence, i will never be able to grade on this imac. I have a PC screen coming soon to try the same thing on.

update* I installed DaVinci Resolve and did the same test. davinci changed the output video inline with the profile as expected and the application shows a true representation of the look.

So this pretty much proves that premiere & VLC are not even recognising the colour table. So calibrating the screen is basically pointless.

As an editor, this is really way out of my league but its ruining my jobs. i have AE 3d Text layers over multiple videos all Linked comps, with grading, so I am not able to got to another NLE on this job.

Report · Jun 10, 2017

premiere isn't color managed. it will ignore any display calibration unless its the native rec. 709 0-255 and that's because your "calibration" will match premiere's internal color engine interpretation similar to AE's pass-through if view-simulate turned off.

premiere won't understand P3 but there is a workaround. you can use LUT transforms to match your monitor's P3 color profile then load them into lumetri technical.

P3 to Rec. 709 x64 iridas cube

CreativeCOW

or you can make your own transform lut with

https://sellfy.com/p/aQ1y/

or with

DisplayCAL (formerly known as dispcalGUI)—Open Source Display Calibration and Characterization power...

fixmyyoutube

64 cube iridas lut for burning in darker 16-235 from 0-255 for youtube upload. it darkens image, then youtube re-lightens again.

fixmyyoutube - Creative COW

Report · Jun 12, 2017

Would this issue be the case with photoshop and all other adobe apps too, we have a whole studio here on 5k imacs because we believed they are the best. I wonder if we are we all seeing incorrect representations of the results and shipping "off colour work"?

Report · Jun 14, 2017

I took your advice and calibrated my screen to match a pc, white paper, and macbook.

Actually, my advice was to remove the computers from the viewing environment entirely. Calibrate your TV to the proper test signals. The Disney WOW disk is very good for this.

Report · Jul 18, 2017

I believe I have found the answer, now I am ten jobs past discovering the issue.

If you wish to colour grade on an imac 5k, you cannot. It simply does not work in the adobe suite.

you will need to purchase a second monitor that can be calibrated (non imac) or use another program that works with the imac ( a bad solution if you pay for adobe).

Long way around in Adobe, Add a lumetri colour lut to each shot when you grade - very time consuming, far too many steps.

Grade rushes in Davincie resolve 1st, export, then start in premiere. Time consuming too, too many variable in uncut footage.

Dear Adobe, please make the system function on an imac and work with the colour profiles so when we grade its accurate. That will save a tonne of time.

Report · Jul 18, 2017

Post this as either a bug or feature request ... both?

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

Report · Jun 29, 2018

I've got the same issue. Spent the past two years working on this film and coloring it. The colors are meant be bright and saturated, but are dumbed down considerably. Working on a 2017 iMac with 5k retina display and calibrated with a Spyder calibrator. I looked at this same image on my macbook and the comparison is much less noticeable- as it may be for everyone not on a similar display as me. I do believe this is a display issue possibly, but since I graded to this display how do I reasonable fix this? Starting over with a new monitor is not an option for us.

Adobe please help!

Report · Jun 29, 2018

You've got a very basic problem. Within PrPro, Rec709 is used ... meaning sRGB, gamma around 2.2/2.4. Outside of PrPro on that monitor, you don't see that. That monitor may well be set to P3 or something like that, at any rate, a much wider gamut than sRGB.

QuickTime player is notoriously color stupid ... pays no attention to the color info in a video file header, just works at the screen's base settings. Chrome and Safari are also color stupid, Firefox is the only browser that pays attention to video color management.

So to evaluate the quality of your work, you need to work with a managed setup. Period. Which PrPro does its best to provide within the program and the monitors it has.

The other thing you need to understand is that once that deliverable leaves your screen, you control absolutely nothing about how anyone else sees it. As one colorist put it, you can't control gramma's green tv.

He'd graded a commercial for network broadcast, it's beautiful on a proper screen. Passed the stringent broadcast QC machines and all. Went on vacation, visiting gramma in Wisconsin. One of those folks who leave the TV running in the background all the time. While talking, there comes "his" commercial. Looking very green. Total yuck.

But that was only his response, because he knew what it should look like. Hers ... she didn't see anything wrong.

Why?

Because that's how everything shows on her TV. It's 'normal' to her.

Every screen, whether monitor, phone/tablet, TV, will be set differently, and almost zero percent are actually even close to "proper" setup for color/tonality. You can't grade for that because they are going to be every direction you can think of. And the viewing conditions ... a bright room will make the same program look very different than if, on that same screen, you blocked all ambient light.

New folk at this always come back with "but my viewers are all gonna use X browser or YouTube ... how can I make sure they get what they're supposed to?"

Well ... you can't. Everything I said above still applies. Some of those screens are going to be smaller than sRGB for color gamut, and your material will be very saturated, over saturated on those, especially if viewed in controlled or dark lighting conditions. Some of the screens will be A-RGB or P3 or whatever, a larger than sRGB gamut, and they'll use non-managed viewing apps. Especially in a bright environment, your material will have lower saturation. Yep. As will all professionally produced media on that screen through the same app.

So your material, produced to b-cast standards ... will look like other material produced professionally on that screen in that viewing app.

If you try and outguess, your material will look better on some screens, but far worse on others. And whatever you do, it will not be the same as other professionally produced media on that screen and viewing app.

Once out in the wild, it's outta your control.

Neil

Report · Jul 19, 2018

For my 2.5 D animation movie I use Pr CC 2018. Here some two (the second group at the middle) shots (a sky night - with light), all with the same export settings H264. Except the two last with IRE 109 checked. The two first snapshots are from Pr preview.

Report · Jul 19, 2018

I'm not sure of the context for each of those shots.

Neil

Report · Nov 29, 2018

alinap8615352 did you ever get a solution for that? I have just now started encountering this too and am lost since everything comes out less vibrant...

Report · Nov 29, 2018

What's your gear, and most importantly ... how much do you understand color in computers/broadcast video

Neil

Report · Aug 25, 2018

All those who use Premiere Pro on a mac with dci-p3 display will get oversaturated colors and drastic discrepancy when uploaded to youtube, etc. since PP is NOT COLOR MANAGED on mac (its 2018 guys, keep on paying your subscriptions). VLC is not working properly with a p3 display either.

Guess the only workaround is to switch display to rec709 srgb gamut, but that is so lame.

update: NO! You cannot “just switch“ the profie, since PP works somehow bypassing the mac color management COMPLETELY. You can test yourself by setting some wierd profile that would screw all colors around the UI, but PP monitor will remain THE SAME! Which means it is TOTALLY UNUSABLE on any current mac since all if them have dci p3 screens, not srgb as PP seems to assume

Report · Aug 25, 2018

First, there are things coming such as HDR that most of us will need to adapt to, and PrPro's current HDR implementation is minimalist (to be rather generous). And wider-gamut spaces are slowly working into TV's and such, will be coming into broadcast work over time ... so ... do head on over to the UserVoice system and (as I and many have done) do an "Idea" request for user-settings for gamut/space/color-management.

Adobe Bug /Feature service: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro

But ... I do have to comment ... you I do hope realize Apple is devoted to devices, the CEO has no idea why anyone would buy a desktop computer, but ... they'll sell you spendy gear anyway. These days, Cupertino/Redmond, they're just companies trying to sell stuff. Both of 'em.

It seems you bought a spendy computer with no user color space controls, with a monitor not designed for current majority of pro work (Rec 709/sRGB being the main pro space) ... and ... didn't check anything ahead of time?

And now, rather than looking at your choices, you blame the one thing you're using that is designed to run the majority of pro level work in the standard applicable: Rec709/sRGB gamma 2.2/2.4.

I'd be rather embarrassed. But then, before I shell out cash on a new computer for my editing rig, I do a ton of research ... how to get the most bang for the buck for what I'll need probably over the next 2/3 years. And to make sure everything in/on that rig works for and with the apps I'm going to be using. How to best set it up after getting it. And yes, that does include Resolve along with the Adobe DVA apps of PrPro, Ae, Au, and Pr.

Then I shell out the cash.

Which is how I've run my business for 40+ years. It's pretty standard ... and I'm always stunned when it seems someone doesn't. How do you stay in business if you don't research your main expenses?

Neil

Report · Aug 25, 2018

Well, not being color managed on Mac platform in 2018 is fat huge NO for an app that aims at professional mac users. As for me, I’m happy with Final Cut Pro - it does display color correctly om wide gamut mac displays.

Report · Aug 25, 2018

Let's see ... how useful is FCPx on a non Mac. oh, that would be ... zero. Right.

You're comparing an in-house app by the maker of the OS, that's also juiced to work with that OS, with an app that works on both major OS.

Oh, and big shock, Apple gives the user no choices for color managed settings as I have been told. While attaching a monitor that is clearly outside normal pro broadcast standards.

Apple has always been run by jealous kindergartners. They don't share nor do they like others playing in their sandbox. And if they grab something from some other kid's sandbox it's now theirs and nobody else's. Applies to gear, apps, even their own codec.

So they built a system clearly designed to force buyers to use their app. Or do a lot of work and some expense to get around it.

And the users buy this and then blame someone else.

That's what I don't get here. Seriously.

Which is a separate issue from the problem that, unlike Apple, Adobe's PrPro really should give users choices. And in this case, doesn't.

We actually do agree on that.

Neil

Report · Aug 25, 2018

well, if by "choices" you mean the ability to choose a Mac computer to work on, then definitely Adobe does not give us this option! We agree on that! My question was how this major issue is not discussed or mentioned anywhere. That's odd.