MOGRT animation messed up after resizing sequence.

[Richard TOULON]

Hi community,

I post this here as I know some Adobe staff members are following those threads.

I had noticed that MOGRT doesn't like the sequence to be resized and beyond MOGRT, a simple animation of text and shapes also. It occurs even if the option " Scale motion effects proportionnaly" when changing sequence size is disable.

It's like if the option was enabled everytime and it doesn't use the anchor point of the Vector motion to move or scale the entire animation composed with multiple elements, it move the anchor points of the animated elements. This is even more noticable when you use a mask since every static element stay in place but each individual animated elements are moved away ( see the second picture ).

The strange part is that I have saved this animation after my first test from my original 1920x1080 sequence. Deleted the original animation from the 1080x3840 I had issue with and drag and drop the saved MOGRT from the Essential graphic panel. Guess what, the animation was messed up. Why ? There is no reason for that. It's like Premiere was trying to scale the motion graphic accordingly to the sequence size even if the option is not selected. And why not after all ? But why using the individual anchor points of the animated elements instead of using the scale and move properties of the Vector motion of ALL the elements ? 

1920x1080 sequence with animated txtSequence size changed to 1080x3840

[R Neil Haugen]

I've just done a bit of work where I've created a mutli-part mogrt, with graphic box and text moving, and applied it on HD or UHD sequences ... it appeared the same and the animation worked as expected.

I've also done this with the included mogrts.

I created two different two-part mogrts with both parts animated on a UHD sequence, and then dragged an included mogrt with motion effects onto the sequence. Played fine.

Changed the sequence settings to HD, without bothering to check the resizing option for graphics in the Sequence Settings dialog, and everything scaled and behaved as hoped for ... identical views on both UHD and HD sequence size.

I've heard others with the same issue you're having ... and am trying to figure out the differences that would lead to this.

Neil

[Richard TOULON]

Hi Neil, thanks for trying. But have you tried on a non 16/9 ratio ? like square or vertical ? Can you do the same test but with square vertical as I have tried ?

[Richard TOULON]

I have just tried to change again the sequence settings with my messed up animation to a square format ( 1080x1080) and my animation getted back in the frame but the text is smaller...so Premiere definitly does something on each element depending on the size and ratio of the sequence. PPRO is reducing the size of the font . It should not be the case. 

The only way to get back to the original created animation with correct font size, no messed up position etc, is to get back to the original size from witch the animation was created.

Also, the templates included with PPRO are ok since most of them are created with AE. 

An other test without animation from a classic 1920x1080 seq. I put two text , one above the other, reduce the size of the underneath one ( with font size ), put a thick rectangle between them, change the sequence settings to 1080x2160. Everything is messing up....

[R Neil Haugen]

I think you're correct that if the aspect ratio of the sequence changes, Premiere doesn't correctly handle re-locating the graphic elements and their animation. Which ... they added auto-reframe because of the need to be able to re-aspect sequences for different formats.

You'd expect this would work as you're trying to do so. But it isn't for you, and I think I've heard others say similar things.

I just changed a sequence from UHD to HD, then to 1080 square. Animations all stayed "together" between text/graphics ... the notable change was on the 1080 square, the text/graphics items dropped to about half the size on the HD settings. Why sometimes work for some, and other times for others, doesn't?

Neil

[Richard TOULON]

the notable change was on the 1080 square, the text/graphics items dropped to about half the size on the HD settings. Why sometimes work for some, and other times for others, doesn't?

If it was just a matter of size , it wouldn't be so much a problem. Just resizing the whole animation or graphic and voilà. But here, it changes the size of the elements individualy and that should not be the case . It seems like PPRO doesn't use the vector motion properties but each element properties ( in my case ...). Thanks for your help !

[Jarle Leirpoll]

I agree that it would be much more user friendly to use Vector Motion for the resizing. 
But since this is not the case, you must pay very close attention to Pinning when you create MOGRTs for different frame sizes. Pinning is what affects how the layers behave when the frame size changes. 

[R Neil Haugen]

Jarle (as nearly always!) has the answer.

Pinning ... and as shown in my graphic, there are several possible things to pin to ...

First, select the items you want to "pin" to something from the top list, as in this example, I selected the text line of "Debbie's New Digs". And note, you can select several items from that list or create a group.

Then to "pin" the selected item/s to one or more borders of the frame-size, you can use the odd shaped icon to the right of the "Pin To" option to select the entire frame or say as in this example, the left and right borders of the frame. You can tell as they are blue not grey.

If you don't want to pin to a border, you can also use the drop-down Pin To box to set the option you've chosen above to be "attached" ... pinned to ... an element you're selecting in the drop down box. Then if the item in the Pin To drop-down box is moved, the item you'd selected above will be moved accordingly.

And again, you can select one or more options from the top box at a time ... you can group things, and move the group ... so you have plenty of options. And I'd suggest creating something with multiple items of text and graphics at different sizes/locations, and then working the pinning options before resizing the sequence to a different proportion to see how each type of option affects movements due to proportion and size changes.

Neil

[Richard TOULON]

I have already made  tests with pinning fonction. But let's be very simple. I just don't want any responsive action. I just want to create a bunch of text and if I change the size of my sequence, I just want to reposition the whole graphic ( only two texts for example ) myself, using the vector motion control. I simply can't .My texts are resized ( What I don't want ). It should not be the case if no responsive action is wanted and if the option in the sequence settings is not engaged. So there is a problem here. Pinning is for certain cases and should not be a part of my composition if I don't want to use responsive. In my exemple I go from a 1920x1080 sequence to a 1080 x 3840, Have a try .

[R Neil Haugen]

Even with pinning, after some things that 'resize' the frame or change proportions, graphics will resize. Which is where grouping and then resizing the group can save time and provide accuracy.

It would be awful nice to have options for when it DOES change size.

Neil

[Richard TOULON]

Believe me, I have made many tests and something is wrong. By default, if no pinning and no " Scale Motion effects proportionnaly... option " engaged, it should not touch in any way the size of my text, so an option to say don't touch my text size and position should not be a solution as it should act this way by default. So this is the problem. If you don't have this issue, it means that there is something wrong with my version and believe me once again, I have searched everywhere and made several tests. I can't believe that anybody has trouble with this. 

[R Neil Haugen]

I think you've got a good point there. I'll play with this some this next couple weeks myself.

Neil

[Jarle Leirpoll]

You keep mentioning something along the lines of "without pinning, it shouldn't change the size of the text". We all agree on that! We are not telling you that it doesn't, and we are not saying it's perfect. 

I offered Pinning as an alternative, and it is the alternative that will get you closest to what you want. But everything you want is simply not possible in Premiere Pro today. We all agree that it's stupid, and that Adobe must change it. 
If you really want and need this, you will have to create your MOGRTs in After Effects.

AE MOGRTs are not scaled by the Auto-Reframe feature. I have made a template with a slider that lets you change between 16x9, 9x16, 4x5 and 1x1. That's not perfect either, because it requires one click per MOGRT in each timeline with different aspect ratios. Ideally, there should be no clicks. But it's the most user-friendly and effective solution right now.

Here are some images to show the concept. Using the sliders, you can choose the Aspect Ratio, and in what corner to place the logo and text. 

16x9

9x16

1x1

UI in Essential Graphics

[Jarle Leirpoll]

I chose the wrong scaling for the 1x1 image in this forum. In reality, the logo is the same size in all cases. Sorry if that causes some confusion.

[Richard TOULON]

Hi Jarle, I think you misunderstand the point of my topic. I'm not looking for a workaround to do it. I have already mentionned that there is no issues with MOGRT from AE. I already done some, I know how to do it. 

It was not just about me, but about people that will have to use it in present time or in next future. My goal was to alert Adobe that there is a little issue here and I think it's not a so big deal to fix it ( even if I don't really know for sure ). I'm an ACE on PPRO and I'm former and I had already noticied this issue on several training . So I have made a topic about it because I know some Adobe staff member might read it. By the way thanks for taking time to find a solution but Adobe need to fix it. If someone make a very simple lower third and change the sequence size, the composition will be broken, the space between the elements won't be the same, the size also and even if there is no animation. It can't be this way. Does that mean I will have to say to my students , for now use legacy text to be sure you text composition won't be messed up by resizing your sequence ? Pretty uncomfortable I think.

[Jarle Leirpoll · Accepted solution]

Well, if you're an ACE, surely you know that this is a support forum, not a bug report form.

Go to the proper feedback page and leave a bug report.

https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro

[Richard TOULON]

Thank you ! You're the man.

[R Neil Haugen]

I've picked up a bit of information about this.

Premiere essentially "sees" Ae mogrts the same as video clips ... so it doesn't make any changes to them due to any resizing or  framesize/proportions changes to the sequence. No more than it does for any base video clip on a sequence.

However ... mogrts created in Pr are still "seen" as comprised of their various elements, and Pr tries to "protect" those elements when size/proportion changes are made.

First, if any elements are not pinned by the user, Pr will automatically set the anchor for that element to the upper left corner. This is why things tend to pop up/left.

Second, text will automatically be resized in any shrinking of image size by frame/proportion changes in order to "protect" that text from running off the screen.

These are not necessarily the behaviors that "we" will always want. So I think a UserVoice request for an option to NOT apply auto-changes on resize would be a good thing.

And yea ... further evidence why creating mogrt in Ae is so often better than in Pr.

Neil

[DaciaSaenz]

Hi Y'all!

I was about to write to Richard on UserVoice. 

So pinning!! I'm actually doing a deep dive now to try and grok all the gotchas within pinning because you are very correct. It doesn't always do what I need or want it to do. One thiing I've learned that it sounds like y'all have landed on as well, is that even if there is no specific pinning created, PR defaults to pinning everything to the top left corner. 

Obviously, that won't give you the results you want. 

Richard, would you mind sharing your Mogrts with me? I'm emailing you now as well. 

I would love to set-up a time this week to walk-through what you're experiencing vs what you are expecting the behavior to be. There are a lot of weird little idiosyncracies within pinning that I'm trying to tease out to determine what is a bug vs what can we polish in the behavior. One thing that I've learned that is weird is that layers that are pinned to each other behave much differently than layers that are pinned to the videoframe -- text in particular. 

Lets talk! 

Dacia

[DaciaSaenz]

Oh also @riklard is part of the issue that your keyframes are on Vector Motion and that that is in conflict with the the way the layers are getting re-arranged when reflowing to a different aspect ratio or is the animation on the layers themselves?

[R Neil Haugen]

DACIA!!!!!

Thanks for popping in! Yea this is puzzling us quite a bit here. Your assistance will be so appreciated.

And for those that don't know, this is one of the most experienced and brightest brains on mogrts across Adobe apps that exists. Besides being such a delightful person.

Neil

[DaciaSaenz]

So happy to jump in! I wanna get this sorted out for folks cause it really is a cool feature. I think we just have a few wrinkles to iron out. One thing I remembered, is  we have a known bug where the the anchor point is getting shifted incorrectly when switching sequence sizes for Text in a Box. The workaround is to use Text on a Point. Could this be part of the issue?

Also just to be clear, did you try and pin the layers to the top of the frame to make sure it would stay in the same position relative to the to top of the frame regardless of aspect ratio?

It sounds like maybe there is also a coonflict happening between keyframes on Vector Motion and keyframes on individual layers? 

[R Neil Haugen]

There's a couple things that have popped up as issues to work through here that most of us don't always think about ... if ever.

1) There is a difference in how Premiere works with text on screen between "text on point" and "text in a box". Most of us haven't a clue there's a difference to begin with.

Text on a Point ... you simply click for a starting point for your text in the program monitor, and start typing. That process uses a relationship to the spot you clicked to "see" an anchor point, and several parameters in changing things work in a particular fashion with text entered in this manner. I don't recall them at the moment.

Text in a Box ... click/drag to create a "bounding box" on screen, then start typing your text in the box. Premiere "sees" a different anchor point for this process, and also in the way some other parameters are applied. Again, I can't recall the specific differences. Dacia can post them.

2) There is another difference between the methods of position/scaling/rotation of the Vector/Motion controls and the EGP position/scaling/rotation controls ... which behave as those controls are found within the Effects Control Panel for the specific graphic items as they are listed.

In general ... you will get more predictable graphics motion if you use the position/scaling/rotation controls of the EGP or in the ECP for the specific graphic items.

Also ... to make sure things animate together, select the things that need to animate as a unit in the EGP listing, and create a Group. Animate the group.

Neil

[DaciaSaenz]

Neil, You Rock!! Thank you so much for translating my engineer-in-the-code-weeds brain into understandable human speak! 

I didn't know there was a difference between text in a box and text on a point until I joined the engineering team. There are definitely things that matter under the hood that one would never think of as a user. 

Thanks for clarifying 🙂 

I can't like this post enough!

[Jarle Leirpoll]

Thanks for chiming in Dacia! Now go convince the devs that this code needs a huge overhaul. :

And PLEASE test it on some new users who have not talked to you or the devs first. Let them dive in and try to create a lower third that behaves as expected. Not "as expected" in the way the devs mean, but in the way the users mean. As expected when you didn't write the code yourself.