Ntsc (60 fps) vs PAL (50 fps)?

[JacquesBak]

Hi all,

I have to choose between NTSC with 60 FPS or PAL with 50 fps on my new GoPro camera (black edition hero3+). What should I do? I live in the Netherlands, so intuitively would go for PAL. But that lowers the framerate possibilities. Higher framerate will enhance my plans to edit certain parts in slowmotion. So, is it possible to shoot with NTSC at 60 fps, edit this movie (in a 60 fps project), burn it to blu ray with loss of quality? Or should I choose for PAL 50 fps?

Thanks in advance for all for the help!

Hugo

[cc_merchant]

Use PAL 50 FPS.

BDR only allows 25 FPS in PAL country.

[Averdahl]

So, is it possible to shoot with NTSC at 60 fps, edit this movie (in a 60 fps project), burn it to blu ray with loss of quality? Or should I choose for PAL 50 fps?

Yes, you can shoot 60 fps, edit 60 fps and burn a 60 fps BD-disk without and view it in PAL contry without any issues. You can mix frame size and frame rates on BD without any issues, that's one of the wonderful things with BD compared to DVD.

/Roger

[JacquesBak]

Hi Roger, this sounds hopeful. Frankly, your saying that the NTSC format won't give any problems. Correct? thx!

[JacquesBak]

CC_merchant tells me to do the exact opposite 🙂

[Averdahl]

Hi Roger, this sounds hopeful. Frankly, your saying that the NTSC format won't give any problems. Correct? thx!

Yes, correct, you can mix and match everything in the BD spec on one BD-disc. For example, you can have your menues in 1080p24, footage in 720p60, old footage in standard definiton PAL+NTSC, credits in 1080i25. All players and televisions can handle that. PAL-only and NTSC-only applies to DVD and not to BD.

Most commercial disc has for example legal text in 1080i, main feature in 1080p24, extra meterial in standard definition.

[Steven L. Gotz]

Your thought processes are almost correct. Shoot 60fps and edit 25fps.

The frames per second for your sequence have little to do with the frames per second of your footage when you are shooting with the intention of playing it back in slow motion.

Now that we are not using interlaced footage, and we are not trying to solve the problems of frame size differences between PAL and NTSC, there is little difference between me shooting at 60fps to put it on a 24fps timeline, and you putting it on a 25fps timeline. At least not for the slow motion footage.

The slow motion footage will show every frame when you interpret the footage to 25fps. No problem. It will look great.

The question is, what will the 60fps footage look like when put on a 25fps sequence at normal speed? Keep in mind the shutter speed is different when shooting 25 or 60.

And I say "little" difference. The math of 60 to 24 might be easier for the program than 60 to 25. I doubt it. After all, it is just a matter of dropping frames.

So that leaves the footage content itself. If it can survive the dropped frames, then great! If it is a little choppy, then it really wasn't suitable.

You have to decide that for yourself. My suggestion is to shoot some sample footage for practice before you do it for anything important. Get to know your camera and how 60fps looks on a 25fps timeline on a BD.

[Averdahl]

Your thought processes are almost correct. Shoot 60fps and edit 25fps.

No, i disagree. BD-disc's handle 720p60 in PAL contry and converting the material will only lead to loss of time and quality with no gain at all.

For slow motion use either Interpret Footage or Clip Speed / Duration.

To JacquesBak:

Try both methods and see what looks best.

[Richard M Knight]

If you shoot non 25/50 in a 50hz mains country you may have problems with light flicker, fillament lamps are ok but the newer energy saving types may cause problems.

I shoot 25i and Alchemist convert it to 29.97i for BD and dvd, thesse discs work in almost every player worldwide (unlike 25i discs)

[Steven L. Gotz]

Roger,

I have tested extensively and I have found that slow motion works best when the footage is interpreted and not merely had frames duplicated.

Therefore, shooting 60fps and editing on a 25fps sequence makes for beautiful slow motion when the footage is properly interpreted. There is no real advantage to shooting 60fps if you are just going to edit in a 60fps sequence and then export by throwing away frames to get to 25fps.

The original post suggested editing in a 60fps and exporting 25fps. But it also indicated that he wanted good slow motion. That is why he wants to shoot 60fps.

If he shoots 60fps and edits 25fps, then the slow motion will be great.

You are probably correct that the BD can handle 60fps, (I would not know) but I don't think that is the point of the original query.

Edit: If the light source is a problem, shoot 50fps instead of 60fps.

[JacquesBak]

Thanks all for the response!

@ Steven,

There is also a possibility in Premiere Pro to interpret parts of the footage at a lower frame rate within a 60 fps sequence. Is that not a better option than working with 60 fps footage in a 25 fps sequence? In addition, your answer suggests that the project setting is PAL 1080p PAL 25 fps, whereas I shoot footage using NTSC settings (at 60 FPS)? This is not a problem? Or should I burn the bluray as a 30 fps NTSC? Lastly, if I'm going to edit in a 25 fps sequence, then I can also import in Adobe Elements instead of Pro right?

Thanks all once again for helping me out. You are all right that I need some actual experimenting with my camera to find out what works best. The proof of the pudding is in the eating!

Ciao

Hugo

[Steven L. Gotz]

I don't use Elements, but I imagine that is correct. If Elements can interpret the footage.

If you have a 60fps sequence and 60fps footage, and you want it to play in slow motion, then you set the speed to 50% then Premiere Pro doubles up each frame. If you slow it down to 40%, then some frames are doubled and some are trippled. Not the best solution, in my opinion.

I perfer to play the 60fps in a 24fps sequence (or 25 or even 30) and then each frame plays once. It comes out perfect.

Test for yourself, but simply changing the speed of a clip is not as good as interpreting it to match a sequence's frame rate.

[JacquesBak]

Hi Stephen,

Thanks once again for the explanation. Your way of working implies that my regular videos (i.e. the not slowmotion footage) in the 25 fps sequence are shot at 25 fps. Correct? Anyway, today I will receive my micro SD card, so I can start experimenting. Thx once again all!

Best,

Hugo

[Steven L. Gotz]

Well, no. Not really. Although that would be better for some footage.

The only problems with shooting 60fps and editing 25fps are that not only are the frames dropped from 60 to 25 which may make the movement less than smooth, the shutter speed is a lot faster and that also makes a difference. But, once again, it depends on the footage.

I shot a series of 10 second clips with me juggling in front of my camera when I first got it. I shot every codec and every speed at every data rate that my camera could shoot.

If I play 60fps on a 24fps timeline, it looks OK on the PC, but taking it to the biggest HDTV in the house I can see that the quality is not 100% of what I would get from shooting the same footage at 24fps. The difference is slight and I have to pay close attention and there is a good chance that nobody but me would ever notice. But there is a difference.