Premiere Pro 25.2.1 - Captions and White Graphics Aren't White

[Corey G]

I'm using the updated Color Managment tools in Lumetri and I can't get the white text to be white in my project. I've tried the settings to overriding the color space and nothing I change effects the luminance of the white text. The graphics and captions are showing about 75 IRE no matter what I do. 

Current Premiere Pro Version - 25.2.1

Mac OS Sequoia - 15.3.2

[R Neil Haugen]

Did you create the graphics in Premiere, or elsewhere?

I do know there's a way that some png and/or jpg files can be tagged for color space/DR, that doesn't fit the Premiere CM as you would expect, while others tagged differently work perfectly.

[Corey G]

It's effecting the captions I generated in Premere and graphics created in Illustrated. 

[Corey G]

I enabled "Preserve RGB" for the graphic I brought into Premiere and that solved the problem for that, but the same process doens't have any effect on graphics I created in Premiere or the captions. 

[Alvin33624978l13c]

"Preserve RGB" worked great for my graphics! Thank youl 

[R Neil Haugen]

You can also set the clip CM for the graphic to HLG or any log option, and as long as auto detect log and tonemapping are both on, it 'scales' graphic white corretly in SDR/Rec.709.

[Sumeet Kumar Choubey]

Hi Corey28086712ghs5,

Welcome to the community! Under Sequence Settings > Color Management > Advanced, set Output Tone Mapping to None. Hope it helps.

Thanks,

Sumeet

[Corey G]

Changing the" Output Tone Mapping to None" does solve the problem of the graphics not displaying correctly, but now my footage is blown out and not correctly colored. I hoped the "Graphics White Override" would take care of this, but it's not having any effect. 

[Sumeet Kumar Choubey]

If you are using media files with wider color space in the same SDR sequence, you may try Input Tone mapping for clip-specific adjustments. For this, you can set Sequence > Color Setup to Direct Rec. 709 (SDR). This should change Output Color Space & Working Color Space to Rec.709 & enable default Input Tone mapping. If required, you can then select the HDR clip in the timeline & make clip-specific adjustments to Input Tone Mapping under Lumetri Color panel > Settings > Sequence Clip. Let us know if it helps.

Thanks,

Sumeet

[Corey G]

I enabled "Preserve RGB" for the file I brought in and was not able to get it to display the correct white. That solved that. I am still having an issue with text generated in Premiere Pro not getting to the correct white value. I've tried enabling "Preserve RGB" but it doesn't have any effect. 

[Corey G]

If you look at the "Sequence Clip" settings it shows that the "Color Space Input Conversion" is set to "Color Managment set to bypass for selected clip", but the "Color Space Output Conversion" is set to "ACEScct to Rec. 709 (Tone Mapped, Gamut Compressed)". How do I bypsss the Color Space Output Conversion for grahics?

[Sumeet Kumar Choubey]

The text layer created in Premiere looks greyish because you have Output Tone mapping enabled. This brings down the IRE from 100 to lower levels. Output tone mapping is a sequence-based setting, and it can’t be customized for individual clips. 
On the other hand, Input tone mapping is a clip-specific adjustment that can be customized on a clip-by-clip basis.

You are currently using Wide Gamut (Tone Mapped) Color Setup for your sequence. This enables Output Tone Mapping under the Advanced tab.

That is why, in the last comment, I recommended using Direct Rec. 709 (SDR) Color Setup for your sequence, which will enable Input Tone Mapping.

Once this is done, the text layers created in Pr will have 100 IRE and look correct without any Color Space Input/Output Conversions.

Also, the HDR clips used in your sequence will have Input tone mapping applied, which can then be customized if you are not satisfied with the default settings. 

Using this method, you can start with a default Input tone mapping and customize it for individual HDR clips by selecting them in the timeline and making adjustments under Lumetri Color panel > Settings > Sequence Clip > Input Tone Mapping. Please see the attached screenshot for reference.

Also, please note that Preserve RGB disables the automatic input to working color space conversion but does not affect the working to output color space conversion in a sequence. That’s why you need to manually disable Output tone Mapping if you want it to not affect all the clips.

I hope this clarifies how the color management options work. Please refer to this article for a detailed explanation of the color management options. Let us know if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Sumeet

[Corey G]

If I set the Color Setup to "Direct Rec. 709 (SDR)" will I still be able to take advantage of the ACEScct color space to grade the Log footage in my project? When I change the working color space in my current project to "Direct Rec. 709 (SDR)" the color grades I did before will have to be redone since they were done in a different color setup. I was able to get around this by nesting the footage before updating the Color Setup to "Direct Rec. 709 (SDR)". Is this the advised workflow? If it is not what is the propper workflow for grading Slog3.Cine footage in Premeire with the updated color workflow in a project that will have graphics added? 

[Sumeet Kumar Choubey]

The ACEScct color space is a bigger working color space for wide gamut media & will require output tone mapping for converting wide gamut clips to SDR. As far as I know, this could be a better option if you are working with HDR or wider gamut workflows and want to use it for creative grading. However, If you're going to use this workflow, you need to keep in mind that the output tone mapping can cause a slight darkening of SDR media, which would need to be corrected manually.

Direct 709 (SDR) is the default workflow for SDR, and it uses Rec.709 as both the working and output color space. In this workflow, you can’t use ACEScct as a working color space. Here, HDR or wider gamut media can still be tone mapped on input to achieve similar-looking results, but slight tweaks to the color grade might be required if it was initially done in a different color space. Please refer to this article for details on working color space.

Sony S-Log3/S-Gamut3.Cine is a supported color space for the Auto Detect Log workflow. For log media, enabling Color Manage Auto Detected Log and Raw Media under File > Project Settings > Color will transform the color to SDR/HDR without needing LUTs. If you want to grade it further, you can do that in Lumetri & this can be used with any working color space. Here is a link for more info on the Auto Detection of Log Formats.

The best workflow will depend on whether you're exporting in SDR or HDR and the media type. Text Graphics can be exported in both SDR and HDR, with the exception of captions. Since captions aren’t treated as clips, correcting darkening from output tone mapping can be a little tricky. Using Direct 709 (SDR) can be helpful in such cases where you have lots of text-based graphics or captions & if you are exporting in SDR.
If you're not working with many SDR text graphics or captions, you can use the Wide Gamut (Tone-Mapped) workflow, though SDR media may need adjustments to account for slight darkening from output tone mapping.

Thanks,

Sumeet

[R Neil Haugen]

Talking with color staffers at NAB, the one problem they really noted about the current CM setup is that sometimes, some SDR media, when done in a managed workflow is darkened to about peak around 70-80 IRE. Which is wrong and they know it's a right pain, and are working on it.

And the fix, for that when you get it, is the end-to-end SDR setting as Sumeet suggested. The problem with that is of course ... mixed media color spaces, ain't it? Requiring some per-clip settings then to get things to match.

And sadly, not allowing for a wide-gamut initial working space for grading.

[R Neil Haugen]

I just tried something that works.

For your graphics, go to the CM settings,  and with the graphics selected, use the Source clip Override Media Color space option, and you can choose a log or say Rec2100 PQ, and your graphic hues and tones will be scaled correctly.

[James31378462ph18]

I did it, and it works in some clips but there still some color shift, that needs to be fixed in the Lumetri Color.

[R Neil Haugen]

Then more information would be needed.

About the specific graphics, and your color management setting.

I assume it's a Rec.709 sequence with auto detect log and auto tonemapping on? 

[James31378462ph18]

I'm editing on a wide gumut colorspace in Premiere pro because I want to have more dynamic range when colorgrade. After editing, I placed some text and I realised that they don't appears white but gray. I also imported a graphic animation I did. But all the white color in that graphic animation appears gray. I overrided Media Color space  and I chose Rec2100 PQ. Now the white appears white instead of gray, but there are some colorshift. I have to add the lumetri color and try to do some adjustements. 

[R Neil Haugen]

Use the Rec.2100 HLG or most any of the log versions instead of PQ for that.

[James31378462ph18]

I did test all of them. And you still need to add lumetri in order to do some adjustements and get the color correctly.

[R Neil Haugen]

What are the animations, made how/where?

[Dave315335654pzc]

What's working for me is to select Wide Gamut (No Tone Mapping)

I'm using SLog3 footage but then selecting override colour space in media properties > colour (I believe) and select ACEScct instead of the SLOG3.Cine/Gamut 3 for each clip individually. Graphics and text are not diminishing in brightness and I still get the wider dynamic range and richness from using ACEScct. 

Having tone mapping off also permits my waveform LUNA scope in Lumetri to act like normal, i.e. pushing whites and blacks to where they should be without confusing the scope. 

I've exported in a standard H.264 1080p 30fps format and the result has matched the preview for me perfectly. Finally found a solution for me. 

Bare in mind I am exporting the video for SDR use as far as I'm aware.  

[JOHN MONDO]

Is there any way to get captions/subtitles to display with correct luminance when working in Direct HLG? Seems like a bit of a miss to me that PP doesn't automatically change it's colour settings to reflect the expanded colourspace and luminance. 

[R Neil Haugen]

Graphics seem to need an applied color space also. Gave you tried giving them an HLG space? Select, Override-to HLG?