Problem exporting 720x480 SD DV to 720x486 SD mpeg-2

[ce98]

I am using Adobe Premiere Pro CC 12.0.  I am trying to export a 720x480 4:3 (29.97fps) standard definition DV AVI video file from the timeline and create a 720x486 SD 4:3 mpeg-2 file.  I know this is an odd export, but my playout server will only play 720x486 files and my native footage is 720x480 4:3 DV AVI.  So, I have to make this upscale.

The footage was shot as NTSC DV AVI 720x480 4:3 format and edited on the timeline in that native format using the sequence/timeline settings as follows:

DV NTSC

29.97fps

D1/DV NTSC (0.9091)

Lower Field First

Ok, no problem so far. 

After editing the footage, I export it as a 720x486 SD 4:3 mpeg-2 file using the Adobe Media Encoder version 12.0.

My export settings are as follows:

Mpeg-2 NTSC

720x486 4:3 29.97fps

Lower Field First

Quality 100

CBR 8 Mbps

Now the problem.  The final exported 720x486 mpeg-2 file is blurred and soft looking and just doesn't look good at all.  It doesn't matter if I select Scale to Fit, Scale to Fill, or Stretch to Fill in the Output Tab in the media encoder window, all the resulting mpeg-2 files have a blur / softness to some degree and not close to the same quality as the original 720x480 DV footage.

Question:  What is the correct way to upscale a 720x480 DV video into a 720x486 mpeg-2 file without having blurry video using Adobe Premiere Pro CC 12.0 and Adobe Media Encoder 12.0?

Thanks for the help.

[Ann Bens]

What does a regular export 720x480 mpeg2-dvd look like?

[ce98]

There is no dvd involved in this at all.  I am trying to export a 720x480 DV file to a 720x486 mpeg-2 file.  NO DVD.

[Meg The Dog]

If you import the exported 486i file back in to Premiere, does it still look incorrect within Premiere?

MtD

[ce98]

Meg, yes it still looks incorrect when I import the 720x486 mpeg-2 file back into premiere.  No change whatsoever.

[Meg The Dog]

If the original 720 x 480 looks correct in Premiere, then, as a test:

Drop the original footage into a 720 x 486 sequence with Default Media Scaling set to None. Make sure you are maintaining the correct Pixel Aspect Ratio of DV footage (for NTSC is it DV 0.9091).

It should end up on the sequence timeline with 3 pixel black vertical stripes on the left and right side.

Does the video, with the exception of the black stripes,  look correct there?

If so, do a test export. Does it look correct exported (except for the black vertical stripes on both sides)?

MtD

[ce98]

Meg, I did exactly as you said.  The original 720x480 DV AVI file looks correct and perfect quality in premiere, so I dropped it into a 720x486 sequence with Default Media Scaling set to None in the Edit>Preferences >Media settings.  The sequence settings are 720x486 29.97 fps with the pixel aspect ratio set to D1/DV 0.9091 Lower Field First.  So the sequence settings are correct.

Now, when I dropped 720x480 dv avi file into the 720x486 sequence I noticed that there is probably a couple horizontal pixels of black at the top of the frame and maybe a horizontal pixel of black at the bottom of the frame in the program monitor window.  So, this differs substantially from what you were saying about there should be 3 black pixel vertical stripes on the left and right.  Also, I noticed in the Position settings that Premiere made the position setting 360 horizontal and 243 vertical.  The normal position for a 720x480 file is usually 360 vertical and 240 vertical.  So Premiere made this Position change automatically when I dropped the 720x480 into the 720x486 timeline/sequence. (It's probably the standard position setting for a 720x486 sequence timeline.)

The quality of the 720x486 timeline video when played on the timeline out to a digital monitor is very good.  It appears it is just as good as the original 720x480 as far as quality.  But, when I do a test export of the timeline to 720x486 mpeg-2 using the mpeg-2 settings in my original post, the resulting mpeg-2 file is blurry/soft and just not as good as what is shown on the 720x486 timeline.

I guess the first thing to figure out is why am I seeing black pixels on the top and bottom of the frame and not on the left and right as you stated.  Maybe this is causing the whole overall problem.  Any ideas?

[Ann Bens]

What exact PAR does this avi use. Might be different from what Premiere uses.

[ce98]

Ann, the PAR of the DV AVI file is 0.9091 which is normal for DV video.

[SAFEHARBOR11]

Please post a screen shot of your MPEG-2 export settings for review

Thanks

Jeff

[SAFEHARBOR11]

I recall having a very similar experience several years ago, trying to convert an .avi clip using an older, obsolete Matrox codec into an .avi using a newer .avi codec that was compatible with my NLE hardware. Took several tries/experiments to get it right (sharp image versus soft mush). I believe it had to do with Source Crop settings in Export. Also involved 720x486 video, wish I could remember the process!

If you can possibly post a SHORT sample clip of the DV source clip for download (DropBox or something) then we can try different things with it. Just export a piece as DV .avi

Thanks

Jeff

[ce98]

Jeff, I have experimented some with the source crop settings and they definitely make a difference, but I have yet to find a source crop combination that will clear up the picture completely.  Should I crop top and bottom or left and right and by how much?  Any help with these crop settings is greatly appreciated. 

I have two screenshots of the 720x486 mpeg-2 export settings shown below.  I think both pictures pretty much cover most of the important settings that you need to see.  As you can see in the photo, premiere pro automatically places black at the top and bottom of the 720x486 mpeg-2 output window.  This is shown without any crop settings set on my part.  You can't tell in the photo but the footage shown in the output window is very blurry/soft compared to the source.  Just as a reminder, the source footage on the timeline is 720x480 dv avi.

[Ann Bens]

Set output to Scale to Fill

[SAFEHARBOR11]

My take on this - and I really wish I could recall how I handled this years ago - is that when going from 480 to 486, one would keep the original 480 lines of video within the new 486-line frame and live with the black at top and bottom, thereby not scaling the video at all, which is what turns it so soft in my opinion.

Will keep thinking on this

Thanks

Jeff

[ce98]

Jeff, if you do happen to remember the crop settings that you used to convert the 720x480 video frame to 720x486, please post them.  The funny thing is that if I export the same exact 720x480 DV AVI file from the timeline as a 720x486 (Lower Field First) GoPro CineForm Uncompressed .mov file or a H.264 720x486 Uncompressed .mov file (Lower Field First), the video is just like the original and not blurred at all.  There is a few black pixels on the top and bottom of the frame, but no cropping is required in the Source output window of Media Encoder.  It looks like the problem only applies to mpeg-2 export.  So, I am really puzzled with this problem.

Thanks

[SAFEHARBOR11]

It's possible that I was doing 720x486 to 720x480. Took many experiments to hit that magic combination, sorry I have no more info on that.

You may have just solved your own issue with the Cineform thing though. I believe it's the conversion from 480 to 486 causing the issues. That is done now. Take that clean 720x486 Cineform file and export that to the 720x486 MPEG-2 file, bet it works!

And if it does work, for the sake of hard drive space, you should be able to use a compressed Cineform option and get "visually lossless" quality without the large file size of uncompressed.

Should also be able to set up a batch conversion in Media Encoder to expedite things. Convert all the DV clips to Cineform, then the Cineform clips get batched to MPEG-2.

Thanks

Jeff

[ce98]

Jeff, I thought the same thing.  Unfortunately, when I place the clean Cineform uncompressed 720x486 .mov file in the timeline and then export it to 720x486 mpeg-2, the same problem is occurring.  The video is blurry/soft as usual.  So, it looks like it is an mpeg-2 export problem in Media Encoder if the export settings are set to 720x486 no matter if the source file is 720x480 or 720x486. 

You also mention that I could transfer my DV footage to a compressed Cineform format.  How do I export to a compressed Cineform file in Media Encoder.  The only Cineform codec I see is if I choose Quicktime as the wrapper and then select the GoPro Cineform codec and choose the GoPro Cineform YUV 10 bit preset.  Where is the compressed option for Cineform?

Also, I have tried to export the DV footage to a compressed 720x486 H.264 .mp4 file.  But the H.264 codec would not allow me to set the frame output size to 720x486.  I could set it to 720x484 or 720x488 but not 486.  The resulting files looked good, but I must have it set to 486.  Do you know of a way in the Media Encoder settings that would allow for a 720x486 H.264 .mp4 export?

Jeff, if I cannot get the mpeg-2 and h.264 to create 720x486 files, then what compressed format within Media Encoder would you suggest that I use?

Thanks for the help.

[SAFEHARBOR11]

Silly me...I don't believe there is any such thing as Uncompressed Cineform...then it wouldn't be using Cineform compression...would just be uncompressed QuickTime! If you saw Uncompressed in the Output Summary, that refers to the audio portion of the clip. I checked the QuickTime > Cineform export settings and there is a Quality slider, which means compression.

H.264 compression uses blocks of pixels to compress, and apparently likes frame dimensions divisible by 4 to accommodate the block sizing, and 486 doesn't fit that formula.

So what other format might you use to export 720x486 for use in your Playout Server? That is really dependent on what the Playout Server is compatible with in the end.

Thanks

[ce98]

Jeff, thanks for the help.

Does anyone out there know of a good compressed codec that will create a 720x486 file.  It doesn't appear Adobe Media Encoder will create a 720x486 mpeg-2 file that is good quality and it will not allow me to create a 720x486 h.264 mp4 file.  It doesn't matter which format, but I need a good quality compressed file that is 720x486 and smaller in size just like a mpeg-2 or h.264 file.  What other compressed codecs will support 720x486 frame size?

Thanks

[chrisw44157881]

the extra 6 is blank ntsc padding for [cc] closed caption broadcast, 3 either side. does the dv have data in there?

[RjL190365]

What you've experienced is the serious degradation of the image quality that's sometimes caused by upscaling. And 720x486 video is NEVER lower field first; it's ALWAYS upper field first. When you simply export a 720x480 LFF original into a 720x486 frame with thin bars at the top and bottom, the 720x480 export to 720x486 should be set to UFF on the encoding to avoid the image-quality loss that's caused by field-dominance conversions. If you did what you did without scaling (left 720x486 exports as LFF), then what Premiere did was interpolate (recreate) all 480 lines of your original video, with devastating image quality loss, because you are actually transferring those lines that did not exist at all in the original 720x480 video.

And remember, interlaced video "frames" are actually composed of two half-fields, each with a vertical resolution that's half the nominal frame size. In other words, interlacing is actually squeezing two 720x240 fields into a 720x480 frame, each alternating with the other. But transferring 720x480 interlaced video to 720x486 interlaced throws things off a bit because the smaller frame is almost always centered within that slightly larger frame and there are an odd number of lines both above and below the edges of the original frame. Therefore, exporting from 720x480 LFF to 720x486 LFF will throw things way out of whack, because Premiere will simply take those lines within the fields that are completely nonexistent in the original video and then recreate new data-containing lines from the ones that are in the original video. So, the best way to transfer 720x480 LFF interlaced video to 720x486 interlaced content would be to set the 720x486 export to UFF. And when you do this new export, leave the scaling set to the default Scale to Fit option.

And I had to post this due to your lack of sufficient knowledge of how interlaced video works.

[ce98]

RjL190365, thanks for all the great info.  However, I did exactly as you directed.  I changed the 720x486 mpeg-2 export settings to Upper Field First.  Also, I left the scaling set to the default Scale to Fit option.  Still, the resulting 720x486 mpeg-2 file is blurry/soft even more so than when it was set to Lower Field First.  As Jeff indicated above and I think he is correct, the answer may lie in the Source Crop settings within the Export window of Media Encoder.  When I change the crop settings to various pixel sizes, I can see differences, but I cannot get the video to clear up completely like it should.  It has a blurred look to it.  What is the correct source crop settings that would clear the video up completely?

Also, I discovered something that may be important.  When I export the same exact 720x480 DV AVI file from the timeline as a 720x486 (Lower Field First) GoPro CineForm Uncompressed .mov file or a H.264 720x486 Uncompressed .mov file (Lower Field First), the video is just like the original and not blurred at all.  The problem appears to only be happening when exporting to mpeg-2.  Any thoughts on this?

Thanks for the help.