PROBLEM: Highly Saturated Color Monitor

Report · Feb 24, 2022

I'm grading footage in Cenima Grade, but in Premiere Pro's Program Monitor it looks highly saturated. Upon export the footage looks about the same in QuickTime as it did in Cenima Grade. When I reimport the exported graded footage back into Premiere, it still looks highly saturated. I uploaded the footage to YouTube and to Frame.io and the result is the same or similar to Cenima Grade. All sequences and footage are Rec. 709 color space. When I opened the exported colorgraded footage back in Premiere's program monitor, it also looks overly Saturated.

I've been diging through forms and can't find an answer. I've always had problems with Premiere's Program Monitor displaying more saturation than the export for which I found Adobe's export LUT guide (which makes no sense that I'd have to had a LUT on export to make it look like it's suposed to to start with...). But this situation is even more extreem. What is wrong with Premiere Pro? It's times like this that make me want to ditch Premiere Pro....but there's just so many features that I love. Why can't they get basic things like this right?

I'm working on an M1 Macbook Pro 16" with an XDR Display. Color Space is the native "Apple XDR Display (P3 1600 nits)".

I've heard that Premiere Pro's Program Monitor is set to broadcast standard. Does anyone know if there's ever a time that the footage would be displayed as saturated as it looks in Premiere? If Premiere is set to Broadcast Sandard, if it's erred on TV will it look that saturated?

Help would be greatly appreciated. I've included a screenshot that shows what I'm talking about.

Report · Feb 24, 2022

Unless a show specifically says it's in HDR, all broadcast/streamed professional media is in Rec.709 ... but full Rec.709, not the Apple ColorSync version of Rec.709.

Apple's ColorSync utility is designed to mis-apply broadcast Rec.709 standards in two ways.

It does not apply the second required transform process, the display transform, and
It uses an odd gamma of 1.96, rather than the specified 2.4 for Rec.709 video files.

So no broadcast or streamed media on that monitor setup as you have it now, would look anything like the colorist graded it in their broadcast compliant suite.

Plus, you're working with your monitor set to the much larger P3 color space, at way above the brightness specified for broadcast work. There's no way you can have any clue on that setup what your media would look like on another system.

When in Premiere, you should be working with the Display Color Management option toggled on in the Preferences. At the very least.

Outside of Premiere on a Mac, the QuickTime player, and Chrome and Safari browsers will allow ColorSync to set CM for video, and all Rec.709 media will therefore be shown a bit brighter and less saturated than within Premiere.

The VLC player and Firefox browser do not normally allow ColorSync to interfere, and if the monitor is fairly close to proper, will give a better idea of what the file will look like on a proper system. But with the monitor set as yours is, that's ... not probably.

Neil

Report · Feb 25, 2022

Thank you for your reply.

This has been quite educational. Firefox browser played the footage back the same as everything else, but VNC Player, on the other hand, looked just like Premiere Pro. So fascinating...

Display Color Management - not helpful

I've been told many times to use Display Color Management in Premiere, but I've never found it to be helpful. It just darkens it a little and adds more contrast. In my experience and in the tests I've preformed playing footage back on other screens, they look much closer to the Program Monitor in Premiere WITHOUT the Display Color Management toggled on.

Screen Comparisons

I compared my computer display to my Amazon 4k FireStick plugged into an LG 30" monitor, playing back through the YouTube app. The footage looks super comparable to my Mac's display playing from YouTube or a QuickTime file.

Premiere Pro still looks way more Saturated.

I did find one display that looked as Saturated if not slightly more saturated than Premiere's Program Monitor.

An "LG 27UK850-W 27" 4K UHD FreeSync" playing footage back from the FireStick, set to the default PictureMode: "HDR Vivid"

PictureMode: "HDR Standard" looks very similar to QuickTime on my Mac.

HDR Vivid makes all videos look a bit over saturated, but I did notice it was within reason on Professional TV shows and whatnot.

Conclusion: So for now, my conclusion is that Premiere's Program monitor does in fact represent how it could look on other Displays.

My Solution: Push Saturation as far as possible without looking bad on the Premiere's Program Monitor, that way it doesn't look too Management on most other devices. Basically I'll try to strike a balance between QuickTime and Premiere Pro's Program Monitor in hopes that it will look as close to correct, as I can get it, on as many displays as possible.

Report · Feb 25, 2022

When you use the Display Color Management option in Premiere, that's to get you a more 'correct' Rec.709 view within Premiere. The expectation is that then when you grade according to the view you see in Premiere and the scopes ... you do grade by the scopes, right? ... that what you get in the file will display on a typical Rec.709 compliant system as expected.

Not that it makes it look better on the Mac screen.

I've been through this discussion so many times, with high-end colorists and color scientists discussing it. People with systems so tightly calibrated the profiles they run show if they have a shadow color mis-match of WAY below human visibility.

You just can't get around the Apple ColorSync utility using the lower gamma and leaving off the display transform. It's ... there. The DCM option in Premiere gets you closer to a "normal" Rec.709 image.

So I would suggest using the DCM, and with your scopes up for both Vectorscope YUV (saturation) and Waveform plus probably Parade RGB scopes. Set your blacks/whites according to the scopes, keep the saturation in the middle to inner area of the Vectorscope, not much out past the middle of the distance from the center to the hexagonal box "safe" limit. Then check that and see what it's like outside your Mac.

Neil

Report · Feb 25, 2022

IMacs and Macbooks will look different from a typical PC because of Apple's OS, default monitors and color management profiles. TVs and AV monitors do not have those same issues.

Wolf,

Fire Stick? Quicktime? Macbook Pro?

What about ATSC standards?

You need an industry standard reference point. I think to some extent you are like a dog chasing it's own tail and you will drive yourself nuts. It does not matter if the video looks better on on YouTube than Premiere Pro. What matters is what does the image look like straight out of the camera when connected to the TV. You were on the right track.

Connect you camera directly to your TV. What does it look like? That is more important than Quicktime, YouTube or Firestick. On the PC side I can mimic that image quality on your TV almost 100% using a computer monitor. With 3rd party hardware you can use your Macbook and DaVinci Resolve to out put to that same TV and things will match 100%. I can then use 3rd party hardware on my PC and Premiere Pro and connect it to your TV and the colors will match 100%. Our computer monitors might only match about 95% but the 3rd party hardware option will match 100%. My video demonstrates that.

No camera was made to be played back using Quicktime and a Macbook Pro. Your TV and 3rd party hardware eliminate the OS, color profiles, software settings etc. Does it kind of make sense?

Report · Feb 24, 2022

What will it look like on the TV. That is the most important question to ask yet know no one ever asks. Congratulations! Many Apple user assume, iPhones, iPads and Quicktime are the Industry standard. Does Quicktime Trump Avid? Does Avid suck compared to Premiere Pro? Does Cenima Grade destroy Blackmagic Design? Watch the video link below to find out who wins : )

Why does my video look darker in OBS! Why do my videos look brighter on YouTube? All software programs will playback video files a tad bit different but Premiere pro can easily compensate for any export issues as seen in the video below.